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DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

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Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#61

Post by yinyinwu »

p1necone wrote: post #56

This seems like a hilariously bad idea. You're basically building a system where whichever group has the most money to burn gets to decide the "truth". I would love you to change my mind though.

Whoever stakes the most tokens also has the most to lose. There is other side of the moderation - anyone can challenge incorrect data and earn tokens for their work.

Currently, there is no support for moderation at scale. Projects like OpenStreetMap offer a valuable resource, but struggle to maintain quality at scale. This is a relevant article: https://blog.emacsen.net/blog/2018/02/16/osm-is-in-trouble/.

With DIRT's model, we want to create a way to build data sets with a focus on accuracy that can scale.

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#62

Post by yinyinwu »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #60
p1necone wrote: post #56

This seems like a hilariously bad idea. You're basically building a system where whichever group has the most money to burn gets to decide the "truth". I would love you to change my mind though.

Climate change will quickly be proven as completely fake …by big oil's dollars.

Climate change is an interesting example. An example of a DIRT registry, would not be the question of "is climate change real". It's unclear what defines "real". Rather a registry could be a list of the average air temperature in a city over time.

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#63

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

p1necone wrote: post #57
p1necone wrote: post #56

This seems like a hilariously bad idea. You're basically building a system where whichever group has the most money to burn gets to decide the "truth". I would love you to change my mind though.

Maybe if there was also very aggressive human moderation to remove anything that was even remotely emotionally/economically charged. Basically just stick to information about math and science (and even then you'd have to avoid political bugbears like global warming or anything to do with economics).

Avoiding politics is basically impossible, everything is political to some degree. For example, even if you just focus on the most boring maths, is it overwhelmingly just male mathematicians' work cited? That's political.

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#64

Post by dragonwriter »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #63
p1necone wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if there was also very aggressive human moderation to remove anything that was even remotely emotionally/economically charged. Basically just stick to information about math and science (and even then you'd have to avoid political bugbears like global warming or anything to do with economics).

Avoiding politics is basically impossible, everything is political to some degree. For example, even if you just focus on the most boring maths, is it overwhelmingly just male mathematicians' work cited? That's political.

> For example, even if you just focus on the most boring maths, is it overwhelmingly just male mathematicians' work cited? That's political.

No, it's not. (One might either attribute a political cause to it or seek a political correction for it, but inherently it's social but not directly “associated with the governance of a country or other area”.)

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#65

Post by lm_nop »

lurker456 wrote: post #40

Interesting idea. How will this handle legal take-down requests ? Backed by DMCA, GDPR, and so on.

Take down requests indeed. Especially for individuals, and especially with GDPR(right to be forgotten), CA privacy law(dont sell my data), etc. If someone else writes on DIRT that I'm an alien from an alien planet bringing a virus to earth (when in fact I'm a human from SF with no viruses), do I need to 1) PAY to get a token to challenge this and also 2) correct inaccurate information with correct information with no option to totally remove the entry (however "ridiculous" the entry)?

Applied to the case of getting accurate VC listings, DIRT has a ploy to get VCs to PAY to get tokens to challenge incorrect entries. Consumers also have an interest in the quality of information, but a primary concern lies with the subject of an entry.

DIRT -If I may, my request to you is to document the heck out of your policies and expected behaviors. The grey line of "ridiculous" that I point out is something that you've mentioned in another response, that you're not in the business of fake news. At some point, you'll need to be making decisions and providing ethical guidelines.

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#66

Post by yinyinwu »

Sir_Substance wrote: post #54
NegativeLatency wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your answer. Can you explain more clearly what the process would be for removing personal info?

I can't see any obvious place to download this dirt protocol so I can check (the website seems to be 100% marketing, 0% documentation), but based on a combination of pattern recognition and the evasiveness of the above answer, I would wager the answer is "there is no process, we didn't think about data deletion".

Hi there - We are auditing our smart contracts prior to launch and plan to open source them. If you are interested in trying out the protocol on launch, send us a note.

Per GDPR specifically, I am learning about the regulations and my understanding is that the right to be forgotten focuses on personal information. Personal information is not a great fit for DIRT registries because it is not publicly verifiable. The concept of voting to determine correctness works best if that data is public and observable.

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#67

Post by p1necone »

dragonwriter wrote: post #64
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding politics is basically impossible, everything is political to some degree. For example, even if you just focus on the most boring maths, is it overwhelmingly just male mathematicians' work cited? That's political.

> For example, even if you just focus on the most boring maths, is it overwhelmingly just male mathematicians' work cited? That's political. No, it's not. (One might either attribute a political cause to it or seek a political correction for it, but inherently it's social but not directly “associated with the governance of a country or other area”.)

If we're actually resorting to quoting dictionary definitions then you missed ~80% of the page you copy pasted that from.

Try "The principles relating to or inherent in a sphere or activity, especially when concerned with power and status."

Regardless, I'm sure you understood perfectly well what the other commenters were meaning by "political", you're just arguing semantics.

(edit: sorry for the snark, but this is such a common, easy way to derail discussion without really adding any substance so I try to call out stuff like this when I can.)

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#68

Post by markerdmann »

NegativeLatency wrote: post #49
yinyinwu wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! DIRT is a fundamentally different approach because it removes the middleman and there is no central moderator. Our goal is to move the trust from a central party to a system of rules that anyone can participate in. I think verified identity could be a registry on DIRT. Adding reputation on top of voting is something we're exploring.

I don't understand your answer. Can you explain more clearly what the process would be for removing personal info?

By design, a public blockchain is an immutable record maintained by a decentralized network where no central authority has the power to go back and remove something from the record. This makes the blockchain an exciting technology for resisting censorship, but it also means that if someone adds your personal data to the blockchain, your options for removing it are very limited. You would need to shut down all nodes in the network or convince all nodes in the network to agree to a hard fork. In the latter case, nodes that don't join the fork would continue to have the private data.

That's true for unencrypted information stored directly on the blockchain. For applications where you need the ability to delete data and don't need strong censorship resistance, one solution is to store private data off-chain and only store the location and hash of the data in the blockchain. This article discusses that idea in detail:

https://medium.com/wearetheledger/the-blockchain-gdpr-parado...

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#69

Post by paulie_a »

Semirhage wrote: post #59
Sir_Substance wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see any obvious place to download this dirt protocol so I can check (the website seems to be 100% marketing, 0% documentation), but based on a combination of pattern recognition and the evasiveness of the above answer, I would wager the answer is "there is no process, we didn't think about data deletion".

You’re being generous... this reeks more of scam than carelessness. Either way, it’s going to never actually be delivered, not be GDPR complient, and based on the answers to questions raised here, full of obvious holes. If it isn’t just a scam, it smells like someone went from “here’s a neat idea I’ve spent a whole ten minutes on,” to fundraising without a beat in between. No resistance to censorship. No resistance t…

For most of the planet GDPR is irrelevant. I personally will never give it any thought when building something.

Re: DIRT Protocol raises $3M to build a Wikipedia for structured data

#70

Post by Semirhage »

paulie_a wrote: post #69
Semirhage wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re being generous... this reeks more of scam than carelessness. Either way, it’s going to never actually be delivered, not be GDPR complient, and based on the answers to questions raised here, full of obvious holes. If it isn’t just a scam, it smells like someone went from “here’s a neat idea I’ve spent a whole ten minutes on,” to fundraising without a beat in between. No resistance to censorship. No resistance t…

For most of the planet GDPR is irrelevant. I personally will never give it any thought when building something.

Failing to give thought to something doesn’t make it go away, but of course it’s your right not to think. As long as you understand that ideology and opinion aside, it can greatly impact your ability to do business in Europe, then you go be you.

Most companies don't do business in Europe.

As defined under GDPR? I’d love citations for that claim.

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