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Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

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Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#151

Post by jpao79 »

sf_rob wrote: post #16
rb808 wrote: post #11

There is an interesting part about solar generating electricity when its sunny - it will help population move to warmer climes. If you live in Ohio heating in winter is a problem, solar isn't going to keep you warm on a cold night (ok batteries can help but they're expensive). If you live in the South West though its perfect as Winter nights dont require much heat and the biggest loads are AC at the times when there…

You could probably invest in a thermal mass hybrid HVAC system e.g. use solar during the day to heat or cool a large thermal mass (thick interior concrete wall/floor to whatever temperature you need it to be at night.

Actually maybe a well insulated house could be considered a "thermal battery". If you look at the CAISO reports, a significant chunk of the duck curve is related to heating/cooling. If you had a super well insulated house, you could do the heating/cooling during the day.

Instead today, people fire up the AC on overdrive when they get home in the evening to cool/heat the place down/up. What happens if your Nest could just fired it up at 3pm while the sun was still shining.

In fact the opposite is done today to take advantage of early morning peak pricing, commercial buildings cool/heat at 3am to get optimal energy pricing.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/retired-cpuc-co...

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#152

Post by Florin_Andrei »

inputcoffee wrote: post #71

The true price of solar is the price to produce reliable, continuous energy. That requires something to smooth out the signal and store the energy, most probably a battery. The solar + battery price is also going down, though not as fast as the solar only piece. But that's the metric we should be following. When that hits $30 per MWh, it'll be game over.

There's a lot of "lumpy" demand that peaks during the day, requiring no storage. E.g. all air conditioning would be perfect as a consumer of solar energy.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#153

Post by inputcoffee »

jartelt wrote: post #140
inputcoffee wrote: post #71

The true price of solar is the price to produce reliable, continuous energy. That requires something to smooth out the signal and store the energy, most probably a battery. The solar + battery price is also going down, though not as fast as the solar only piece. But that's the metric we should be following. When that hits $30 per MWh, it'll be game over.

This comment gets made in every single solar article put on HN. The true price of solar is what the market is willing to pay for it. If the solar was ruining the grid or was way more expensive than what it seems, we would not keep seeing solar installed at this pace and at these costs. We need to get out of the mindset that all power generators need to produce a steady amount of power 24/7. A flexible grid made of ma…

You misunderstand the sense of "true" here.

The point is not that the "true" price in the sense of what it ought to be. It is the "true" price in the sense of what the market is actually paying for the service.

When people put out the number $23, they compare it with the cost of power and wonder why, if it is so much lower, it doesn't already swamp the current solution.

So the purpose of the comment is to explain that it is not a complete solution, and not reflective of the total ("true") bill.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#154

Post by Bricejm »

oconnore wrote: post #44
stcredzero wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in Ohio that is a problem, solar isn't going to keep you warm on a cold night Houses built to the German Passivhaus standard would do just fine in Ohio. I used to live in Ohio and Western Pennsylvania, so I should know. There was one Minnesota church built with polystyrene panels that had to start running air conditioning in the middle of winter, the insulation was so good. If you live in the South West t…

It's a shame that there isn't the regulatory flexibility to subsidize desalination plants, because desalination plants are sort of like insurance policies in that you usually don't need them that much until a drought hits and then you really wish you had them. That sort of long term risk averse thinking is exactly where the market economy needs to be supplemented.

Would it make sense to combine California's ability to produce solar and need for water? Build solar plants that run during the day that power desalination plants that fill reservoirs in the western mountainous area which then releases the water at night downhill to the main canal system while turning turbines on it's journey?

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#155

Post by heisenbergs »

jartelt wrote: post #140
inputcoffee wrote: post #71

The true price of solar is the price to produce reliable, continuous energy. That requires something to smooth out the signal and store the energy, most probably a battery. The solar + battery price is also going down, though not as fast as the solar only piece. But that's the metric we should be following. When that hits $30 per MWh, it'll be game over.

This comment gets made in every single solar article put on HN. The true price of solar is what the market is willing to pay for it. If the solar was ruining the grid or was way more expensive than what it seems, we would not keep seeing solar installed at this pace and at these costs. We need to get out of the mindset that all power generators need to produce a steady amount of power 24/7. A flexible grid made of ma…

Not only that. Solar energy production follows the sun, which incidentally is what humans also follow and when they are typically active and using most energy. Hence, solar producing energy when it is actually needed and in most demand (peak energy). This is even more so the case in hotter places that need AC.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#156

Post by Tharkun »

tombert wrote: post #69

I'm of course a supporter of solar, and I don't want to be "that guy", but is there a strategy for handling solar power at night? In these areas that are mostly solar, how do they store the energy, or do they resort to natural gas or coal or something?

1) Reducing demand would be a great place to start. Good insulation, something to help keep the sun out in warm climtaes, efficient appliances of any kind etc.

2) Timing demand to peak solar moments. When the sun is brightest, why not start heating your well-insulated home & start your washer and stuff?

3) A bit of local battery storage could help the grid immensely, especially wrt appliances like electric cookers (induction or whatnot), toasters & kettles etc. These usually draw a lot of power for a pretty short amount of time -- and to make matters worse, everyone uses them around roughly the same moment around sunset. I think this is where the value in things like the PowerWall truly lies.

I guess when those three things are in place, it should be a lot easier to provide power outside of peak solar moments.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#157

Post by duxup »

My house faces south westish. I have a lot of roof on the back side that I think would be good for solar but all the automated online stuff seem to indicate it was be expensive and not pay off for a LONG while. At least around here in MN there's not a lot of residential push for it. Hopefully as prices drop it becomes more viable.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#158

Post by overcast »

rb808 wrote: post #48
overcast wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it have to be electric heat? Natural Gas is doing a good job right now. Let's work on supplying electricity, for things that require electricity first. When we've moved away non renewable energy sources for electricity generation, then move onto the heating issues in colder climates.

Yes Gas is great, but in 100 years it wont be cheap. I wasn't really talking about the next decade.

In a 100 years, at this rate there might not be any cold climates.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#159

Post by manmal »

heisenbergs wrote: post #155
jartelt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment gets made in every single solar article put on HN. The true price of solar is what the market is willing to pay for it. If the solar was ruining the grid or was way more expensive than what it seems, we would not keep seeing solar installed at this pace and at these costs. We need to get out of the mindset that all power generators need to produce a steady amount of power 24/7. A flexible grid made of ma…

Not only that. Solar energy production follows the sun, which incidentally is what humans also follow and when they are typically active and using most energy. Hence, solar producing energy when it is actually needed and in most demand (peak energy). This is even more so the case in hotter places that need AC.

For ACs and cooking lunch, yes. For cooking dinner and artificial lighting, no.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#160

Post by preparedzebra »

swebs wrote: post #86
preparedzebra wrote: post #65

The internal combustion engine seems to have been milked for all the efficiency our current materials can get out of it, while new materials and economies of scale in solar tech keep pushing prices lower. However, material science could also revolutionize the efficiency of engines and make them cost competitive with solar again. Solar-ification seems to be the trend, but it is not guaranteed.

>However, material science could also revolutionize the efficiency of engines and make them cost competitive with solar again I doubt it. We've passed peak oil and have resorted to expensive techniques like fracking to collect the scraps. Meanwhile, even if no advances in solar panels occur in the future, the price of power produced by solar will only go down as more panels are added to the grid. The biggest hurdle n…

I think a lot of people lack imagination here. What kinds of efficiencies could we create with room temp. super conductors? This is a good read for anyone interested in this trend https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136403211...
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