TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court • Hacker News Board

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#61

Post by Hydraulix989 » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #34

existencebox wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, and more clearcut, I don't think ire should be limited. Those who voluntarily participate in enforcing the current system are not exempt from the fallout of their choices any more than much of HN would suggest engineers be exempt from the ethical decisions of our employment. Look recently, people are saying Microsoft employees should quit because MS sells office products to ICE. If that's the line in the sand…

> Turns out all this was over a pair of nail clippers the wife forgot she had packed... Nail clippers are not allowed now!? I fly with nail clippers all the time (including to/from the US) and have never had an issue. Looking at the TSA site, nail clippers are explicitly permitted as well [1]. Was the agent actively looking to hassle you? [1] https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/...

I wouldn't put it past them.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#62

Post by staunch » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

sincerely wrote: post #41

staunch wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the exact reason the Roman Republic failed! The powerful political actors realized they could just physically intimidate and impede their opponents with gangs. No one that believes in a functioning society should support politically motivated violence of any kind.

What do you think a war is, if not "politically motivated violence"?

Politics in this context clearly means internal politics but there are many different causes of war. Many wars have been fought in self-defense, for example to challenge a foreign invasion.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#63

Post by s73v3r_ » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

cglace wrote: post #36

mindslight wrote: post #2

The best interaction I ever had with the TSA was when I came upon a pair openly wearing their uniforms around a grocery store, so I was able to call them fascist child molesters to their faces.

And you accomplished nothing. . . Seriously, most of these people are not "fascist child molesters" and probably already hate their job. Congrats on making them view the general population as people they detest a little more.

Are we supposed to make them feel all happy and warm about violating our rights? They should feel miserable for what they do.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#64

Post by staunch » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #29

staunch wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incredibly cowardly of you. You're using "fighting words" which is not speech that is protected under the first amendment. The common response to fighting words like this is a fistfight. In this case you're making a coward's bet that they value their source of income enough not to kick your ass. A police officer might have (legally) arrested you for trying to start a fight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighti…

Given that it's political speech, and given that I am unable to state this opinion in the direct venue - while I'm being assaulted and detained by them - I think it's justified. Or at least worth playing the grey areas if we're doing any individual action to stand up for our rights. Also, I was a decade younger. I don't see how anything you've said supports the characterization of "cowardly", unless you mean I was wr…

There are much more effective ways you could protest the TSA. Mouthing off to random employees in a grocery store was clearly not chosen based on effectiveness but laziness, so don't lie to yourself about the lack of venues. It's cowardly because you wouldn't use fighting words like this in a context where you believed they might respond like many reasonable people would: with a punch in the mouth.

You're hiding behind their own civility and restraint. The same way many women think they can freely attack a man under the assumption that many men don't want to hit a women. It's cowardly to use someone else's self-control as a weapon against them.

And you should realize that your personal opinion that they're fascists and child molesters is not even close to a proven fact. It's a slanderous and exaggerated characterization that very few reasonable people would agree with, even those that do not like the TSA at all. Try reporting their "child molestation" to any law enforcement anywhere in the world. No judge and no jury would convict them of your charge. It's not so much different from calling a doctor that checks a child's testicles for problems a molester. Context makes all the difference legally and ethically. You disagree with the ethics but that doesn't make you right. Legally there's no question that you're wrong.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#65

Post by newen » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #4

The opinion is here (should be up on the CA3 website later today): http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=310762278918844... . The relevant discussion starts at 12-13. The gist of the suit is this: Ordinarily, you cannot sue the federal government (sovereign immunity). The Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA), broadly waives sovereign immunity for tort claims. An exception to that waiver of immunity is where the agen…

Wait..so, a federal employee, if they are not a law enforcement official, can punch you as part of their job and not get into legal trouble?

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#66

Post by beirut_bootleg » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #31

binarymax wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are not law enforcement, can you actively resist arrest and detainment with self defense?

TSA screeners are not authorized to make arrests or use force in the course of their duties. They will, however, call airport police, who are law enforcement officers, to do those things.

Would this be the same airport police that drags bloodied fliers from planes?

I’m a magnet for random checks in the EU - getting my laptop swabbed for bomb-making material because oooh scary stickers or something. It may very well just be my luck, but regardless I’m staying the hell away from the US just on the basis of these TSA horror stories.

You can keep your legal weed and I can keep my teeth.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#67

Post by s73v3r_ » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

clubm8 wrote: post #6

mindslight wrote: post #2

The best interaction I ever had with the TSA was when I came upon a pair openly wearing their uniforms around a grocery store, so I was able to call them fascist child molesters to their faces.

>* The best interaction I ever had with the TSA was when I came upon a pair openly wearing their uniforms around a grocery store, so I was able to call them fascist child molesters right to their faces.* I'm no fan of the TSA, but do you think that was productive? Maybe direct your ire at the people at the top who make these policies instead. There's been progress on that front with several Trump administration offic…

"Maybe direct your ire at the people at the top who make these policies instead."

These agents still choose to carry out those policies.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#68

Post by erric » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #34

existencebox wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, and more clearcut, I don't think ire should be limited. Those who voluntarily participate in enforcing the current system are not exempt from the fallout of their choices any more than much of HN would suggest engineers be exempt from the ethical decisions of our employment. Look recently, people are saying Microsoft employees should quit because MS sells office products to ICE. If that's the line in the sand…

> Turns out all this was over a pair of nail clippers the wife forgot she had packed... Nail clippers are not allowed now!? I fly with nail clippers all the time (including to/from the US) and have never had an issue. Looking at the TSA site, nail clippers are explicitly permitted as well [1]. Was the agent actively looking to hassle you? [1] https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/...

This is just one of the many problems with the TSA: their policies are randomly and inconsistently enforced.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#69

Post by jstanley » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

newen wrote: post #65

rayiner wrote: post #4

The opinion is here (should be up on the CA3 website later today): http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=310762278918844... . The relevant discussion starts at 12-13. The gist of the suit is this: Ordinarily, you cannot sue the federal government (sovereign immunity). The Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA), broadly waives sovereign immunity for tort claims. An exception to that waiver of immunity is where the agen…

Wait..so, a federal employee, if they are not a law enforcement official, can punch you as part of their job and not get into legal trouble?

No, a federal employee can punch you while carrying out their job and the federal government does not get into legal trouble. (Is the way I understood it from reading the post above.)

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#70

Post by mnm1 » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #53

mnm1 wrote: post #40

So in other words not only can the tsa arrest and likely even beat, shoot, and kill you, but as a citizen you have no recourse, not even the recourse you would have against normal police. In other words, they truly are above the law even more so than police. Please tell me I misunderstood this article. I'd like to know how this lady got arrested. Shouldn't they just have kicked her out of the airport instead? Or did…

The TSA aren't armed so I'm curious how they'd ever shoot anyone. When has a TSA officer ever killed someone in the exercise of his or her duties? Detention at an airport security checkpoint is not kidnapping.

It's not part of TSA duties to arrest someone either, but they did it somehow, so that means they could pack their own gun and kill people too or do any number of things that is not part of their duties.

https://www.tsa.gov/blog/2016/07/03/tsa-myth-busters-do-tsa-...