Live data from Hacker News

TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

reuters.com

41–50 of 140 posts

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#41
post #22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's been progress on that front with several Trump administration officials confronted while dining for example. Normalizing the harassment of elected officials is dangerous and it puts us on a direct path towards politically-motivated random acts of violence.

It's the exact reason the Roman Republic failed! The powerful political actors realized they could just physically intimidate and impede their opponents with gangs. No one that believes in a functioning society should support politically motivated violence of any kind.

What do you think a war is, if not "politically motivated violence"?

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#42
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incredibly cowardly of you. You're using "fighting words" which is not speech that is protected under the first amendment. The common response to fighting words like this is a fistfight. In this case you're making a coward's bet that they value their source of income enough not to kick your ass. A police officer might have (legally) arrested you for trying to start a fight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighti…

Given that it's political speech, and given that I am unable to state this opinion in the direct venue - while I'm being assaulted and detained by them - I think it's justified. Or at least worth playing the grey areas if we're doing any individual action to stand up for our rights. Also, I was a decade younger. I don't see how anything you've said supports the characterization of "cowardly", unless you mean I was wr…

It's not political speech. It's you being an asshole which, under other circumstances, could well lead to someone punching you in the face.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#43
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incredibly cowardly of you. You're using "fighting words" which is not speech that is protected under the first amendment. The common response to fighting words like this is a fistfight. In this case you're making a coward's bet that they value their source of income enough not to kick your ass. A police officer might have (legally) arrested you for trying to start a fight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighti…

Given that it's political speech, and given that I am unable to state this opinion in the direct venue - while I'm being assaulted and detained by them - I think it's justified. Or at least worth playing the grey areas if we're doing any individual action to stand up for our rights. Also, I was a decade younger. I don't see how anything you've said supports the characterization of "cowardly", unless you mean I was wr…

It's about as brave as a redneck driving by some black kids screaming ###### at them. Seriously, you are characterizing people that may just check some ID's as child molesters. You sound unhinged.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#44
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are not law enforcement, can you actively resist arrest and detainment with self defense?

>If they are not law enforcement, can you actively resist arrest and detainment with self defense? There is a substantiated legal opinion that DHS men are not law enforcement officers, and thus you can. I wonder, if anybody actually tried.

Nobody has tried because nobody has ever been arrested by the TSA. The TSA calls the airport police or local police and they arrest you. It's hard to imagine a scenario where airport police will not take the TSA's word for it.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#45
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are not law enforcement, can you actively resist arrest and detainment with self defense?

>If they are not law enforcement, can you actively resist arrest and detainment with self defense? There is a substantiated legal opinion that DHS men are not law enforcement officers, and thus you can. I wonder, if anybody actually tried.

I've never seen it, but I wonder if that's because the guys who actually knock your head are not ever really seen at an airport security checkpoint until something happens. And then they are everywhere. I have to believe that DHS has already thought of what's being proposed here.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#46
post #30
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assault/battery are state law crimes or civil torts. But 18 USC 111 makes it a federal crime to assault any federal employee (not just law enforcement officers) in the performance of her duties. Presumably, OP is referring to the idea that having special laws to make assault a federal, rather than state, crime is "trumped up."

So wait, is OP saying that 18 USC 111 is a "trumped up" law?

"Trumped up" in 99% of cases means "I don't like this law in the incredibly specific scenario I've made up in my head."

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#47
post #44
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they are not law enforcement, can you actively resist arrest and detainment with self defense? There is a substantiated legal opinion that DHS men are not law enforcement officers, and thus you can. I wonder, if anybody actually tried.

Nobody has tried because nobody has ever been arrested by the TSA. The TSA calls the airport police or local police and they arrest you. It's hard to imagine a scenario where airport police will not take the TSA's word for it.

Yeah, this makes more sense to me.

Also, the police are probably monitoring the checkpoint from somewhere in the back anyway. So they likely have you on camera before they even get to the scene.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's been progress on that front with several Trump administration officials confronted while dining for example. No there hasn't. It just makes everyone think these are petulant children. They ask for respect and equality of others but don't wish to give it to anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology.

What's funny about your comment is that it's ambiguous whether you're calling the Trump officials or the protestors yelling at them petulant children.

Why does it have to be either/or? It could be both/and.

But in the instance of the comment in question, I think it was pretty clear that it was the protesters who were acting like petulant children.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#49

The best interaction I ever had with the TSA was when I came upon a pair openly wearing their uniforms around a grocery store, so I was able to call them fascist child molesters to their faces.

I'm 100% sure this never happened.

Re: TSA screeners win immunity from flier abuse claims: U.S. appeals court

#50
post #4

The opinion is here (should be up on the CA3 website later today): http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=310762278918844... . The relevant discussion starts at 12-13. The gist of the suit is this: Ordinarily, you cannot sue the federal government (sovereign immunity). The Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA), broadly waives sovereign immunity for tort claims. An exception to that waiver of immunity is where the agen…

(i'll say i actually gravely dislike the TSA, but think this is clearly the right result)

"The majority holding is probably correct as a matter of statutory interpretation."

Yeah, agreed. Reading this statute, it's fairly clear it was not meant to apply here, but it does raise the sad issue of "we've separated these jobs enough to create a loophole".

If they were designated LEOs, they'd clearly fall under the statute, even when performing administrative searches. By making them line employees with no officer authority, they've avoided this.

While i agree the dissent makes a good point, it's also unclear to me they should be able to make a federal torts case of this given the state of the world. First, dissent is hand-wavy on this point: '“By analogizing TSA searches to routine administrative inspections, my colleagues preclude victims of TSA abuses from obtaining any meaningful remedy for a variety of intentional tort claims,”"

They can and did file a claim with the TSA. The TSA simply denied it.

You need more than them denying it to say "it's not meaningful". IE you can't just wave your hand and say they denied it so it's not meaningful, you'd have to show data that says filing these claims is not producing meaningful results when it should.

Instead, they simply provide data that there have been less than 200 administrative complaints (out of 700 million screened!), and no data about how they have been resolved (and if you aren't getting due process, you can in fact make out a claim about that!)

They also did settle the property damage claim.

Beyond that, while i generally think complaints should be resolvable through a sane process (hence my argument about the data on claims made to the TSA), i strongly disbelieve that every bad interaction with a TSA line employee should be actionable in federal court as a tort.

(i'm also not going to argue about the efficacy, etc of the TSA. As long as air travel remains not a fundamental right, the rest of this legal reality sadly comes along for the ride)

Here, they actually did what they were supposed to - they didn't start a fight, beat this person down, etc. Instead, they went to their supervising officer and said "we believe were were assaulted, please call the police"

There is apparently strong disagreement on the interaction that led to this happening, and the entire suit is about what happened after that (the arrest, etc).

I believe the result is correct as to these people, who did not actually arrest or prosecute them. That decision was made by others, based on review of evidence, etc.

They are not suing any of the people who made those decisions, claiming lack of evidence (i'm aware a bunch of them are immune, but not all of them) etc, they are suing the people that they had the bad interaction with.

They also could have asked the government for westfall certification (They didn't), which would let them sue the screeners personally.

All in all, i just don't see the badness in this ruling that others do.

Post reply on HN