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How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

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Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN might not exactly be the right audience for this message, given the nature of Ycombinator. And even on an average American software engineer salary, it's not extremely challenging to become a millionaire - you just have to be frugal and save a large percentage of your salary for a decade or two (depending on your compensation & stock options).

Keep in mind that a millionaire meant something entirely different when this phrase was first uttered. It'd be something closer to $10 million in wealth today. Today being a millionaire just means you won't eat cat food when you retire.

A frugal engineer on an $98k adjusted salary can pretty easily make $10M over a 45 year career. Not accounting for huge windfalls from stock, etc.

The median salary for an electrical engineer was $97,970 [0]. If you invest $50k/year at 6% return you get $10M in 45 years.

Of course this requires pretty massive discipline. But it’s easy in the sense that if you go to a good stem school, get a job and keep it, and don’t get sick, anyone can do it.

Of course 6% is super conservative as the total return of the s&p over 90 years is 9.8% [1]. If was you could get that rate somehow, you only have to save $15k/year.

Of course this is really hard in the sense of willpower, discipline, etc. And there’s certainly bad luck that make it not 100% certain, but it’s an open path to anyone in America (and other countries). Even for $10M.

[0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mobile/... [1] https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average...

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#42
post #38
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a decent point. I want to be clear that I'm open to the thesis here, that the class system in Silicon Valley has caste like elements to it. However, this particular article doesn't investigate this thesis. Instead it appears, at least in part, to be grabbing the emotional impact of a "caste" system while discussing what is a class system.

Right, I agree with this. There are certainly classes in the sense that some people make $250k and there are certainly homeless people and baristas. And there may be some inequities and inefficiencies in the merit of people at classes. But my experience (and the data in general) shows that there is low inequality and my personal experience shows more mobility that other professions that require a lot more certificati…

[deleted]

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#43
i've lived for long periods inside and outside SV, which I'll flatter myself into thinking gives me an insider and outsiders perspective.

i share the author's sense of horror that SV is becoming a dystopia led by tech elite that think they're building a utopia, but literally have little to no meaningful contact with people that live two or more rungs below them on the socioeconomic ladder.

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have a positive, but finite, amount that I care about people in poverty. It appears too low to effectively help them except in the case that the same effort might also help yourself. This is not caring. >Giving people in poverty a sustenance level of amount money per month seems it prioritizes neighbors in poverty more than today The contradictions and other problems really are too long to list here but it shouldn…

> It appears too low to effectively help them except in the case that the same effort might also help yourself. UBI would absolutely not help me or my family in aggregate. We would be net donors to that program, likely by a factor of more than 20. I support it not because it's good for me, but because it seems the best way to ensure a minimalist safety net for all members of the society. > This is not caring. I under…

The purpose for social programs is not to provide freedom, but to provide security against loss of health, life and a bare minimum of dignity, the latter of which is even maintained on death row... let us remember poor people die every day without a last meal.

I hope I don’t sound disrespectful, but your ongoing insistance that governments in the abstract are inherently dysfunctional seems to underwrite most of your last comment and this is just such an ignorant roadblock. It’s not a matter of opinion. I take immense issue with many businesses, and most American business traditions, but I would never be so ignorant as to refuse acknowledgement of what they do well or to misrepresent their role in all civilized societies. Why insist such a limitation on your own understanding?

Governments are essentially for the people. They serve to facilitate a common civility. Feudalism was born of the necessity to protect the farmers and their crops with a military. It’s legacy was diminished by a long period of failing to prioritize the people. Democracy + capitalism is not a perfect match; but some of Europe has had the courage to face it’s failures and inches closer to actualizing governments which are for the people.

When you criticize America’s government, you’ll want to be careful. “Business” is probably a more accurate descriptor of what you’re actually criticizing. It’s no secret, either. So when you insist on discounting the configuration of a particular “government”, you’re devolving what could otherwise be a productive conversation. Therefore, I’m going to ignore most of these assaults on proven successes and the potential for future innovation. Without criticality, we an go ahead and just agree we are fucked.

This is not meant as a straw man but it deserves a word or two: When it comes to who should speak for the needs of poor people, how do you reason that you are qualified?

Of course, poor people are not always* their best spokes people, but they do have a type first-hand experience unlike any other.

I’ve been economically lucky compared with many people I know but there were periods in my childhood when my family would benefit and a significant one as an adult. It’s hard to imagine our different experiences are not causal to my position, but the nature of that relationship is far from obvious.

For you, capitalism has consistently meant freedom. For me, it has meant moments of awe for the wonders of capitalism soon to be fraught with sudden peril and lasting threat. I don’t think guilt on either end is necessarily useful, but the dreadfulness of the poverty experience in America is reason alone that it’s not easily shared. Some films have tried, like Kelly Reichardt’s Wendy and Lucy. The lack of natural story arc is a problem, but the real dealbreaker is invoking what it is to be robbed of one’s dignity.

Dignity is complex, but the day-to-day of poverty in America leaves no doubt of it’s fragility. The dizzying network effect of ever-more-tangling dependencies intercut with penny counting, truth-stretching, psychological escape, false hope, begging, crime, self-doubt, and the many flavors of shame have a way of defining it’s importance.

This can’t be said enough: The purpose for social programs is not to provide freedom, but to provide security against loss of health, life and dignity.

Freedom is fallacious. The limits to one’s freedom are defined by their relative power over others. It’s risky and has many exterior dependencies. It’s unnecessary but nice to have.

Security and dignity are far more meager and far more important. Loss of these defined by one’s means for survival and health. Loss of security and dignity has tremendous direct physical and mental health consequences, and is the most common gateway to violence, crime, and suicide.

Poor people know not to fuck with the latter. Poor people have cutting experience with the countless ways that money’s value is dependent on those who have more of it.

>I don’t want a new government agency deciding where poor people live, what they are given to eat, and what clothes they are given to wear.

In a life of poverty, the difference between a government deciding and nobody deciding incredibly often the difference between sickness and health, hunger and nourishment, or life and death.

Direct commodity distribution done well (by an educated, compassionate, and civically engaged population) is drastically more efficient, drastically more effective, and drastically more humane. Of course, it might require a little innovation. Hopefully you don’t hate innovation.

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that a millionaire meant something entirely different when this phrase was first uttered. It'd be something closer to $10 million in wealth today. Today being a millionaire just means you won't eat cat food when you retire.

A frugal engineer on an $98k adjusted salary can pretty easily make $10M over a 45 year career. Not accounting for huge windfalls from stock, etc. The median salary for an electrical engineer was $97,970 [0]. If you invest $50k/year at 6% return you get $10M in 45 years. Of course this requires pretty massive discipline. But it’s easy in the sense that if you go to a good stem school, get a job and keep it, and don’t…

45 years ago, the median salary was not $97k. You need to adjust for inflation of the salary as well.

Edit: You're also not accounting for taxes, which will take a sizable chunk of dividends and capital gains.

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It appears too low to effectively help them except in the case that the same effort might also help yourself. UBI would absolutely not help me or my family in aggregate. We would be net donors to that program, likely by a factor of more than 20. I support it not because it's good for me, but because it seems the best way to ensure a minimalist safety net for all members of the society. > This is not caring. I under…

The purpose for social programs is not to provide freedom, but to provide security against loss of health, life and a bare minimum of dignity, the latter of which is even maintained on death row... let us remember poor people die every day without a last meal. I hope I don’t sound disrespectful, but your ongoing insistance that governments in the abstract are inherently dysfunctional seems to underwrite most of your…

> The purpose for social programs is not to provide freedom, but to provide security against loss of life and dignity.

Citation needed.

It appears you believe the proper purpose of social programs does not include freedom. Others believe that spending more money than today, in the form of the most flexible instrument we have, money, will create freedom and allow everyone to have basic security against starvation and other loss of dignity. No waiting period. No qualifying event. No requirement to prove you’re jumping through arbitrary hoops. No restrictions, other than the same budget constraints that most anyone works with.

On the dignity point, no one will see you going down to the warehouse to get your government issued block of cheese or whatever some central authority has decided is best for you. Instead, you shop at the same grocer as everyone else, making your own selections for what you need.

I don’t hate innovation. Hopefully you don’t hate freedom or believe it should be reserved for high-income people. See how stupid that sounds?

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose for social programs is not to provide freedom, but to provide security against loss of health, life and a bare minimum of dignity, the latter of which is even maintained on death row... let us remember poor people die every day without a last meal. I hope I don’t sound disrespectful, but your ongoing insistance that governments in the abstract are inherently dysfunctional seems to underwrite most of your…

> The purpose for social programs is not to provide freedom, but to provide security against loss of life and dignity. Citation needed. It appears you believe the proper purpose of social programs does not include freedom. Others believe that spending more money than today, in the form of the most flexible instrument we have, money, will create freedom and allow everyone to have basic security against starvation and…

Food stamps don’t work like that. At all.

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#48
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that a millionaire meant something entirely different when this phrase was first uttered. It'd be something closer to $10 million in wealth today. Today being a millionaire just means you won't eat cat food when you retire.

A frugal engineer on an $98k adjusted salary can pretty easily make $10M over a 45 year career. Not accounting for huge windfalls from stock, etc. The median salary for an electrical engineer was $97,970 [0]. If you invest $50k/year at 6% return you get $10M in 45 years. Of course this requires pretty massive discipline. But it’s easy in the sense that if you go to a good stem school, get a job and keep it, and don’t…

1) who is getting 6% annual return on small amounts of money and where? 2) casually investing half of your salary before tax. That works out to around 65% of your money after tax if we're being conservative. If you were able to do that, I say spend that 65% of income that is just free income presumably if it's not going to rent or food. 45 years of massively more comfortable during the prime of your health and brain function is probably worth it over eventually being very rich in your later years

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#49
post #3

This is an odd use of of the term caste. Or even class. Both of these imply low or no mobility within social hierarchies. But I don’t think this is the case. “An Outer Party member could reach the Inner Party by chancing into an early job at a lottery-ticket company (such as Facebook or Google) or by becoming a successful entrepreneur. But that’s rare; most of the Outer Party prefers working for the Inner Party, grad…

Social mobility in the US is far lower than most of its peer nations in the developed world.

Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The purpose for social programs is not to provide freedom, but to provide security against loss of life and dignity. Citation needed. It appears you believe the proper purpose of social programs does not include freedom. Others believe that spending more money than today, in the form of the most flexible instrument we have, money, will create freedom and allow everyone to have basic security against starvation and…

Food stamps don’t work like that. At all.

That's right and I don't see anyone claiming that they do.

Food stamps are an in-between solution which are neither direct distribution of commodities nor cash.

You seem to prefer we move towards more direct distribution; I prefer to move towards cash. Differences of opinion like this are why we have a democratic/representative process to end up deciding.

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