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Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

theguardian.com

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Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#491

I do my part in promoting captialism, which has done more to pull children out of poverty than any other program or charity in the world. Free market reforms in China and India have done just brain blistering amounts of good in reducing human suffering, from child malnutrition, suicide rates, longevity, and access to healthcare.

First of all, an all-out free market at the start of the industrial revolution is when we started seeing horrific child labor become the norm. It only quelled (or flowed to less fortunate regions) once there were legal measures put in place.

Second, unless you are a diplomat or a policy maker (er, removed), I don't think you're promoting capitalism more than the rest of us.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#492
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military people are on average more pro war then average population. Military leadership gains power with wars and looses it with peace. Pacifists happen to join armies less.

We're talking about a hypothetical electorate made up of mostly enlisted soldiers who were on the shit end of the stick when it comes to war.

And I am talking about actual attitudes of various real world demographics. Right now.

But also, Nazi leadership was on the shit end of the stick when it comes to WWI. That did not prevented them to start WWII. Instead, the experience normalized the violence for them and shaped their believes. On the other side, Stalin was fighter in particularly cruel war too in his formative years. Was not peaceful either.

Lastly and less importantly, people who had done dying don't vote, they are dead. Only people who survived previous war vote. And survivors often internalized values that are help to survive the war. They sometimes have hard time to adjust to peaceful life afterwards. Your presumption that "only absolutely necessary wars would ever be fought" has no basis in reality.

Also, your theory assumes that enlisted soldiers actions are motivated primary by self-preservation and will vote on that. Some are, but many are not. Others are motivated by duty, career progression, pride, social status, honor, professionalism, tradition, salary, wish to prove themselves or simply by liking to be in the army structure. In case of your hypothetical army, many men will join for career in politics and social status reasons. People motivated primary by self preservation wont join your hypothetical army.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#493
post #486
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partially dumb luck. - “A ranger of the Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation alerted authorities to the missing group after seeing their unclaimed belongings at the cave entrance.” - “Volanthen was placing guidelines in the cave to later assist others in navigation. He ran out of line, which led him to swim to the surface—there, he found the missing team and its coach.” https://en.wikipedia.o…

Richard Stanton and John Volanthen are the real deal. People should read their wikipedia pages. Also, watching cave diving videos... even on their best day, when they're having a great time, it looks absolutely horrifying. lol

This article linked on Wikipedia is also a good read: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/03/british-divers...

> Volanthen is a computer engineer who runs marathons in his spare time and lives in Bristol.

These guys are basically superheroes.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#494
post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're saying capitalism is what has made things better. The Europeans subjugated and killed people in the name of capitalism. Cultures were extinguished (we're talking genocide). You offer no evidence that capitalism made things better other than it being somewhat correlated with improvements of the last few dozen years. It could just as easily be the spread of liberalism or globalism. You can't really say as th…

Saying the Europeans subjugated and killed people in the name of capitalism is one heck of a claim. Mostly they did it in the name of their country and king or whatever excuse. But they certainly didn't say: "I'm enslaving you and stealing your capital in the name of a free market system which believes every person is the owner and price arbitrar of their own labor," which is so outlandish a claim as to require extre…

What do you think the purpose of the British East India company was? They were trying to make a buck through trade with India. How exactly are you denying that? It's even in the name. They ended up using force to install their own governors so they wouldn't be shut out local trade. Or is your plan to claim that the Britons of the time were not true capitalists? Are you familiar with the history of the term "Banana Republic."

> I'm enslaving you and stealing your capital in the name of a free market system which believes every person is the owner and price arbitrar of their own labor.

Capitalism is a practical theory, you can't create your own utopian free market system where people's 'rights' to property are magically enforced.

There's no rule or capitalist ethos saying that I can't simply take your stuff if I have the resources to do so. In fact, as far as I can tell, the objective is for me to take your stuff. If I can trade nothing of mine for everything of yours, I'm simply maximizing my profits. Pat on the head for me! You need an outside theory to understand property rights, courtesy of someone like John Locke.

But saying Indians or Chinese didn't have a system of property rights or government before the Europeans saved them with capitalism, is wrong and a bit racist. As if everything in the rest of the world was awful before the white-man came and created civilization to save the savages.

> And free trade capitalism is just a tool, but a tool so powerful it lifts billions out of poverty even when they're ruled by totalitarian governments.

This is a rhetorical platitude. I'm supposed to believe it because you believe it, and you keep repeating it, but you haven't provided evidence that it's actually true.

> Or would you argue that the US's efforts to reform Chinese communism were more effective than it's efforts in engaging in free trade, in helping alleviate the suffering tens of millions?

I think the US has had little to do with China solving it's internal problems. (Which arguably, it still hasn't entirely solved, my pessimistic view is that it has simply taken a break). Also, let's talk about those factories with subhuman working conditions in Shenzhen where people commit suicide and make iPhones. Free trade, yay.

> We should all support freedom and democracy, but lets not kid ourself about the power of free trade markets to improve people's lives faster than simply advocating for the vote and free speech.

I'm not saying free trade is bad, but what I am saying is that it is terrible as a #1 guiding principle. You need something more substantive than that.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#495

You really have to love Wikipedia. It's barely a week old and you already have a page with so many references and detailed information. Thank you, all the anonymous contributors.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17497625 and marked it off-topic. Not that there's anything wrong with your comment or Wikipedia.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#496

I do my part in promoting captialism, which has done more to pull children out of poverty than any other program or charity in the world. Free market reforms in China and India have done just brain blistering amounts of good in reducing human suffering, from child malnutrition, suicide rates, longevity, and access to healthcare.

Please do not break the HN guidelines by taking thread on generic ideological tangents. It leads to trainwrecks of offtopicness, as below.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17498676 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also looking at the side-view diagrams of the cave, if they were running away from the entrance because it was starting to fill up, I'm surprised that very tight hole they crawled through wasn't also underwater at the time since it looks like it is as low or lower than the cave entrance itself. They descended to below the entrance altitude after having gained a lot of altitude. I know there are probably no answers bu…

Also the fact that they kept together. Would be interesting to know if at some point they were separated and if not, how they kept together in the dark.

they had a flashlight (but I think just one)

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#499
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about a hypothetical electorate made up of mostly enlisted soldiers who were on the shit end of the stick when it comes to war.

And I am talking about actual attitudes of various real world demographics. Right now. But also, Nazi leadership was on the shit end of the stick when it comes to WWI. That did not prevented them to start WWII. Instead, the experience normalized the violence for them and shaped their believes. On the other side, Stalin was fighter in particularly cruel war too in his formative years. Was not peaceful either. Lastly a…

Interesting points.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#500
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is the best website for following: 1. Current events. 2. Sports tournaments. The information entropy level is quite high, with basically no ads, extremely good formatting (relevant tables, charts etc.), and relatively unbiased. This doesn't even mention the benefit of getting simple background information on the subjects with just a simple click (or even a hover these days) It's really a treasure.

I strongly disagree about current events. The Merrick Garland wikipedia page was a mess immediately after he was nominated, and I've just checked and the word "unprecedented" appears 7 times, in spite of the fact that it is by-no-means unprecedented for the senate to not consider a nomination [1]. There are a lot of partisan editors that wish to astroturf for their own political convictions, and because Wikipedia art…

+1. I have felt this as well. I personally consider the "Lock" icon as a sign that the article is controversial and then I am extra skeptical about it. Might be a good idea for Wikipedia to highlight controversial articles prominently using some other iconography like big bold text telling that the current article is under rapid contradictory edits, or even highlight parts of the text that have been recently edited multiple times and therefore are likely to be controversial.
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