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Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

theguardian.com

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Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#421

Post by los_angeles »

sangnoir wrote: post #416
los_angeles wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically buying stuff made in poor countries. This (more than literally anything else) has made a staggering improvement in the lives of hundreds of millions of people over the last few decades.

> Basically buying stuff made in poor countries. Capitalism is also farm subsidies, tax breaks and other corporate handouts given by rich nations that destroy the farming industries in poor countries. Capitalism (as currently practised, or in its purest, unregulated form) is not an untarnished 'good' by itself. This is without considering how capital is leveraged to the detriment of anything protecting poor people in…

Yes there are all sorts of evils associated with capitalism, such as the concentration of wealth and environmental destruction we're seeing.

The optimistic narrative that I adopt hopes/assumes that we'll somehow become more sensible on these issues as time goes on.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#422

Post by slowferrari »

typon wrote: post #149
throwawayqdhd wrote: post #110

You really have to love Wikipedia. It's barely a week old and you already have a page with so many references and detailed information. Thank you, all the anonymous contributors.

Wikipedia is the best website for following: 1. Current events. 2. Sports tournaments. The information entropy level is quite high, with basically no ads, extremely good formatting (relevant tables, charts etc.), and relatively unbiased. This doesn't even mention the benefit of getting simple background information on the subjects with just a simple click (or even a hover these days) It's really a treasure.

I would add:

3. Car Model history

crazy the amount of information available on wiki around automobiles/auto programs (DARPA, etc)

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#423

Post by kazinator »

foldr wrote: post #397
kazinator wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase "concentration camp" in the English language no longer has any literal meaning that is simply composed of "concentration" and "camp". It refers strictly to the WWII Nazi concentration camps. Anyone using the phrase and then insisting that the literal meaning was intended is thoroughly disingenuous. That speaker or writer is deliberately using the loaded term in order to troll the intended audience with a c…

The Nazi camps pertaining to the Holocaust are correctly called extermination camps, not concentration camps. Although e.g. Auschwitz is commonly referred to as a concentration camp, this is a euphemism, and the term is not considered correct by anyone writing seriously about the Holocaust.

That may be so, but you're referring to pedants and historians, not common usage.

It is not a euphimism; everyone knows that it refers to starvation and horrific murder and aren't using that word for the sake of masking this.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#424

Post by sangnoir »

los_angeles wrote: post #337
monkmartinez wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion on this is unpopular, but I will say it anyway; People shouldn't have more kids than they can afford.

Well, sure, but the people having 8 kids in Sudan probably aren't checking the comments on HN for family planning advice. So they are probably (well, not probably)... they ARE going to have more kids whether you like it or not. The question becomes how do we (Western society, which has more resources than we know what to do with) address the issue and try to do good in the world.

> The question becomes how do we (Western society, which has more resources than we know what to do with) address the issue and try to do good in the world

Be involved in how your governments and MNC's behave in these countries. These entities are more likely to pay attention when you, as a voter or customer with more disposable income, say something compared to the citizens of poorer countries who have less of a voice.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#425

Post by kazinator »

snackbugs wrote: post #358
kazinator wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase "concentration camp" in the English language no longer has any literal meaning that is simply composed of "concentration" and "camp". It refers strictly to the WWII Nazi concentration camps. Anyone using the phrase and then insisting that the literal meaning was intended is thoroughly disingenuous. That speaker or writer is deliberately using the loaded term in order to troll the intended audience with a c…

Ideologically there is no difference to previous uses of the term. Historically it refers to concentration camps of the second Boer War where over 150,000 people died in camps which concentrated specific settler populations in a manner that made the thinning of their population a foregone conclusion. If it evokes the use of the concept you dislike, rethink your moral stance on it. Not the phrasing of the concept.

It doesn't evoke; it denotes. Like "rain" refers to "water falling from the sky". Not a moral stance whatsoever.

The word for non-murderous concentration camps is "internment".

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#426

Post by macintux »

stared wrote: post #251
macintux wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12 kids and 1 adult trapped in a cave is a discrete, solvable problem. Millions of kids in poverty much less so. We're much better at dealing with time-bounded, localizable problems. Stalin's quote about tragedies and statistics comes to mind.

Still, the question is: for a given amount of resources (time, money, people) how many quality-life-years can be added? If this quality is order of magnitude lower than other less exciting solutions (e.g. access to medicine and education for kids from poor families), then we should be aware that what we pay for is not lives saved, but an emotional entertainment show.

I'm reminded of a fellow in, IIRC, St. Louis. He expends tremendous amounts of energy, time, and money rescuing stray dogs, to the point where he doesn't have much of a social life. It's all about the dogs.

Someone asked him why he didn't instead pour that energy into helping homeless people. His response was something to the effect that there were plenty of others helping people; his passion was the dogs. I believe he also turned the question around: what are you doing to help the homeless?

A few dozen cave divers can't do much to help the millions of impoverished children, but they used their skills to perform heroic and deadly feats to help 12 children and their coach, and inspired many around the world to ask themselves these types of questions.

Reducing that to a cost-benefit analysis vs some vague "but can't we spend that effort on the other lost kids?" question is both impossible and missing the point.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#427

Post by ohyes »

merpnderp wrote: post #272

I do my part in promoting captialism, which has done more to pull children out of poverty than any other program or charity in the world. Free market reforms in China and India have done just brain blistering amounts of good in reducing human suffering, from child malnutrition, suicide rates, longevity, and access to healthcare.

That could just be correlation.

India and China were doing fine until the Europeans came and subjugated them. There was some upheaval when the Europeans left and created a power vacuum. Shockingly, being conquered and ceded and the related civil unrest could also be blamed for (for example) strongman dictators that happened to come into power and cause famines, or genocide and sectarian strife. A lot of that conquering was done in the name of capitalism. (The British East India company, specifically).

Capitalism is fine, it serves the purpose of obtaining a local optimum in certain trade situations. But it is a completely amoral theory. All it tells us is if this, then that. It is a set of formulas.

Sometimes it creates net good, because it causes us to have more efficient and liquid markets, overall creating more wealth for those allowed to participate in the market. But other times it tells us, these people should starve or go homeless, because they don't create economic value. (In true, unbridled capitalism, a lot of marginalized people would simply die). The number of people who don't create economic value will clearly increase if automation of 'work' continues.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#428

Post by kadenshep »

merpnderp wrote: post #272

I do my part in promoting captialism, which has done more to pull children out of poverty than any other program or charity in the world. Free market reforms in China and India have done just brain blistering amounts of good in reducing human suffering, from child malnutrition, suicide rates, longevity, and access to healthcare.

No it hasn't. Industrial and scientific advancements are to be credited with this. Not asinine resource allocation systems, that have in fact needlessly let people die.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#429

Post by bhandziuk »

Hamuko wrote: post #187
typon wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is the best website for following: 1. Current events. 2. Sports tournaments. The information entropy level is quite high, with basically no ads, extremely good formatting (relevant tables, charts etc.), and relatively unbiased. This doesn't even mention the benefit of getting simple background information on the subjects with just a simple click (or even a hover these days) It's really a treasure.

Well, popular sports tournaments. Not all of them have current information.

I know right! My kickball league isn't on there.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#430

Post by protonimitate »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #374
protonimitate wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only part I think was weird was him brainstorming on twitter. I know there is a huge anti-Musk sentiment lately. Whatever you think of the guy, I think it's commendable that he used what resources he had to attempt to help. People can blast him all they want for his 'egoism', but sitting behind the keyboard mocking him is even less helpful than what you accuse him of doing.

People blast McDonalds for putting phrases about tragic situations on their signs. People criticize them for being opportunistic and capitalizing on a tragedy. So, how is this different? Because he happens to be able to build a "submersible" for kids, he should get a pass? Why can't McDonalds say, "Our thoughts are with you" and get a pass?[0] This was pure PR. Everyone claims he's so smart and all this, but he ignor…

>>So, how is this different? Because he happens to be able to build a "submersible" for kids, he should get a pass?

Because this wasn't Tesla or SpaceX taking out an ad and saying 'look at all the good we can do!' this was a human using resources in his means to help a situation. In the end it was futile, but it's pretty amazing that they were able to prototype something in days and offer support in the way they know.

Sure, you can argue he's a narcissist, but the public made him that way. His entire legacy and fortune was built on PR, which we gave him on a silver platter. Now all of a sudden it's become bad taste to support him, and everyone flips and expects him to slink away into the shadows.

There was literally 0 net negative from his move. Sure he got his name thrown around headlines, but it didn't take away from the hundreds of people who contributed.

Why is being critical of someone so much more important than acknowledging an act of kindness?

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