Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim • Hacker News Board

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#11

Post by jrockway » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 6:13 AM UTC

Police said that Mr. Smith was following bicycle safety recommendations such as wearing light-colored clothing, using reflectors and riding in the bicycle lane.

This is a common misconception. Reflectors are worthless. Riding in the bike lane exposes you to great danger -- car doors flying open to the right, aggressive motorists passing too closely on the left. If you take the lane, you're out of the "door zone", and motorists have no choice but to slow down and pass you like they would pass any other vehicle on the road. You may feel like you are being an annoyance, but annoying people is what makes them pay attention and not kill you.

As for reflectors; they only work when there is a clear path from an illumination source to the reflector and back to your eye. Sometimes that happens, but more often than not, it doesn't. You don't need a $300 super-bright rechargeable light system -- get a $5 blinky and throw an extra AA battery in your seat bag. It may save your life.

Also, read Effective Cycling: http://www.amazon.com/Effective-Cycling-6th-John-Forester/dp...

Please don't get yourself killed because you don't want to inconvenience a motorist or buy an LED light. Oh, and get a helmet; the $30 ones are just as safe as the $200, if not as comfortable.

I hate to be preachy, but it makes me sad when people die because they are using a safe and efficient form of transportation. (And believe me, I am not blaming the cyclist for his own death here -- the motorist who murdered him is to blame, with a close second to poor city planning and the total lack of bicycle education in the US.)

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#12

Post by sliverstorm » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 6:14 AM UTC

jbm wrote: post #7

volski wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I'm sure the manager who probably makes 10 an hour can just start giving people raises at will. How aggravating indeed.

Out of curiosity, do you feel that 10 years of loyal service should not be rewarded with any kind of raise at all? Even if he wasn't earning much more than 8 or 9 dollars an hour even then, but it probably would mean quite a bit for someone in that situation. With inflation, he was actually being paid less 10 years later.

Odds are if the manager really liked him, the manager would have liked to give him a raise.

However, sometimes available finances simply do not warrant a raise. Sometimes higher management who does not know an employee says "why should we pay him more, we can just find another Joe to do the same job", without knowing the measure of the man.

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#13

Post by sliverstorm » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 6:17 AM UTC

The comment on the article reveals completely the lack of intelligence and elitism of the commenter.

It may be wonderful to think that the people who man lower-end jobs are somehow less deserving than you, and somehow should be executed. But without those people filling those low-end jobs, our world would fall apart. No matter what you think of them, you need them, whether you realize it or not.

And on the other hand, if the commenter was thinking "he will most certainly be happier dead than working at that job", that illustrates that he has never been in a position lower on the economic scale. While low-quality jobs are no walk in the park, it is possible to enjoy one's self and take pleasure in life without being at the top of the totem pole.

Either way, it is obvious the commenter is a fool.

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#14

Post by volski » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 6:25 AM UTC

jimmyjim wrote: post #8

volski wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I'm sure the manager who probably makes 10 an hour can just start giving people raises at will. How aggravating indeed.

That he complained that he "never even got a card" meant that he was not appreciated as a friend by his manager-- that's something completely beside the monetary wage. They should have been friends, after 10 years together. And even if the manager was earning a low amount there's no reason that in just one year out of those 10 he could not have given him a Christmas bonus. Even a small amount, so that Mr. Smith would…

>That he complained that he "never even got a card" meant that he was not even appreciated by his manager

"I kind of forced him" to celebrate holidays, Rogers said.

That quote kind of puts a different perspective on it. His roommate had to force holidays on him, so is it a wonder his manager didn't give him cards? Maybe that's just the way he came off.

"He might not have meant something to somebody else, but he was like family to us. He meant something to us." - Dayhoff, his boss at Crab Shack. That sounds like he appreciated him to me. Quit acting like you guys care about Neil Smith more than his no-wage-raising, no-bonus-giving, no-card-giving manager. That guy actually lost somebody, you guys didn't. So don't be so quick to call him uncaring.

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#15

Post by jimmyjim » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 6:31 AM UTC

volski wrote: post #14

jimmyjim wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That he complained that he "never even got a card" meant that he was not appreciated as a friend by his manager-- that's something completely beside the monetary wage. They should have been friends, after 10 years together. And even if the manager was earning a low amount there's no reason that in just one year out of those 10 he could not have given him a Christmas bonus. Even a small amount, so that Mr. Smith would…

>That he complained that he "never even got a card" meant that he was not even appreciated by his manager "I kind of forced him" to celebrate holidays, Rogers said. That quote kind of puts a different perspective on it. His roommate had to force holidays on him, so is it a wonder his manager didn't give him cards? Maybe that's just the way he came off. "He might not have meant something to somebody else, but he was l…

He explicitly complained to his friend of not getting a card or getting a raise.

Celebrating holidays or not is a completely separate issue.

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#16

Post by ugh » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 7:03 AM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #11

Police said that Mr. Smith was following bicycle safety recommendations such as wearing light-colored clothing, using reflectors and riding in the bicycle lane. This is a common misconception. Reflectors are worthless. Riding in the bike lane exposes you to great danger -- car doors flying open to the right, aggressive motorists passing too closely on the left. If you take the lane, you're out of the "door zone", and…

I would be carful with the application of hyperbole. Reflectors don’t work under certain conditions but they do work very often. They are by no means worthless. I could imagine that especially reflectors in the spokes can help increase visibility.

… and the total lack of bicycle education in the US.

Is there really no road safety education in school? We have pretty extensive road safety education in Germany including a multiple choice and practical bike test [+]. It feels a lot like a dry run for the real driver’s license, at least for the impressionable mind of a fourth grader. I got a nice certificate when I made it.

It’s obviously seen as a first and important introduction to the traffic rules – what do the road signs mean, how does right of way work, and so on. You probably shouldn’t be confronted with all of that only when you are making your driver’s license. If only because you also have to know pretty much all those rules as a biker.

[+] At least in Bavaria. Education is the sole responsibility of the states. A quick search suggests that elementary schools in many if not all states in Germany have some form of road safety education including a bike test.

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#17

Post by _delirium » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 7:20 AM UTC

jbm wrote: post #5

TGJ wrote: post #3

How aggravating. "I'll go through 10 people before I find another like him" yet he will continue to pay the man 7.25 an hour. Everything you want out of an employee and nothing else and you can't pay the guy better than dirt cheap minimum wage and somehow lament at his death.

You said it. Quote: Dayhoff, his boss at Crab Shack, read the story on the Times website and found himself outraged by unsympathetic comments posted by some readers. "I just can't get over some of those people reacting the way they did," he said. "This guy was a human being. He might not have meant something to somebody else, but he was like family to us. He meant something to us." -- Meanwhile: -- Jeff Lackey, who l…

Not really making a political statement either way, but I've been very surprised at how much small gestures can mean in some situations, and how relative status is.

About 5 years ago, some fellow grad students and I had a fairly recent Guatemalan immigrant serving as the janitor in our part of the building. It was basically awkward all around: the janitors normally came in late-ish to vacuum and empty trash cans and such, to avoid being there when most of the employees were, but grad students, especially in CS, work pretty random hours, so we were often there at 11pm or whatever. The guy spoke no English, and none of us spoke more than about 30 words of Spanish, but somehow given our life positions, none of us were comfortable totally ignoring another human who came into our area (I imagine some people are more used to doing so). So there was always this awkward attempt to say hello and make smalltalk, which mostly ended up in Spanish because the grad students knew a tiny bit more Spanish than the guy knew English.

He actually seemed pretty happy about that interaction happening at all. At some point, though, we ended up collecting like $200 and a card for Christmas (perhaps we felt a bit guilty that he came around emptying trash and vacuuming while we were doing a mixture of procrastinating on Bejeweled Blitz and maybe sometimes writing papers), which he found amazingly surprising. From our perspective it was quite strange that we were capable of making a gesture that made someone surprised/grateful, because I mean we were poor grad students, which in our context was a low-money/low-status occupation.

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#18

Post by jackowayed » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 7:23 AM UTC

ugh wrote: post #16

jrockway wrote: post #11

Police said that Mr. Smith was following bicycle safety recommendations such as wearing light-colored clothing, using reflectors and riding in the bicycle lane. This is a common misconception. Reflectors are worthless. Riding in the bike lane exposes you to great danger -- car doors flying open to the right, aggressive motorists passing too closely on the left. If you take the lane, you're out of the "door zone", and…

I would be carful with the application of hyperbole. Reflectors don’t work under certain conditions but they do work very often. They are by no means worthless. I could imagine that especially reflectors in the spokes can help increase visibility. … and the total lack of bicycle education in the US. Is there really no road safety education in school? We have pretty extensive road safety education in Germany including…

Anyone can bike on the roads without any license or anything, and they teach you nothing in school about safe biking.

But I think what he meant is that drivers aren't aware of bike-related issues, aren't looking out for bikes, do stupid shit whenever they see bikes, etc. I love biking, and it's a great way to get around, but stupid drivers make it really dangerous.

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#19

Post by ugh » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 7:25 AM UTC

jackowayed wrote: post #18

ugh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be carful with the application of hyperbole. Reflectors don’t work under certain conditions but they do work very often. They are by no means worthless. I could imagine that especially reflectors in the spokes can help increase visibility. … and the total lack of bicycle education in the US. Is there really no road safety education in school? We have pretty extensive road safety education in Germany including…

Anyone can bike on the roads without any license or anything, and they teach you nothing in school about safe biking. But I think what he meant is that drivers aren't aware of bike-related issues, aren't looking out for bikes, do stupid shit whenever they see bikes, etc. I love biking, and it's a great way to get around, but stupid drivers make it really dangerous.

Just to clarify, you don’t need any kind of license to drive around on a bike in Germany.

Re: Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

#20

Post by jrockway » Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 7:36 AM UTC

ugh wrote: post #16

jrockway wrote: post #11

Police said that Mr. Smith was following bicycle safety recommendations such as wearing light-colored clothing, using reflectors and riding in the bicycle lane. This is a common misconception. Reflectors are worthless. Riding in the bike lane exposes you to great danger -- car doors flying open to the right, aggressive motorists passing too closely on the left. If you take the lane, you're out of the "door zone", and…

I would be carful with the application of hyperbole. Reflectors don’t work under certain conditions but they do work very often. They are by no means worthless. I could imagine that especially reflectors in the spokes can help increase visibility. … and the total lack of bicycle education in the US. Is there really no road safety education in school? We have pretty extensive road safety education in Germany including…

In the US, bikes are basically considered toys. If you're a kid, you ride one on your sidewalk to enjoy a sunny Saturday afternoon. If you're an adult, you buy one that costs $3000 to impress your friends. You put it on the back of your car, drive it to a fun location, and pedal around for a few hours once a month. It's way too dangerous to even consider thinking about maybe possibly riding it to work or something, because cars are out there with the intent to murder you as efficiently as possible.

Incidentally, I ignore all this and bike to work every day, bike to stores when I go shopping, do all my grocery shopping with my bike, and of course go on long rides for no reason other than that it's enjoyable. Yeah, there are people who will give you mean stares at traffic lights, or engage you in discussion about how dangerous it is and how annoying you are to them. They also seem to enjoy demonstrating the loudness of their horn... which do end up being quite loud.

But what's good about the Internet is that it's allowed me to grow a very thick skin. I can deal with the yelling. I can position myself in a lane position that keeps me safe but slows down one or two drivers. It's hard, but I can do it, and I enjoy cycling a lot (and don't think drivers are bad). But most people don't have the self-confidence that I do, get yelled at, and never ride their bike to work again. Cars aren't ruining the environment, drivers are.

Incidentally, my second-biggest complaint is that it's hard to buy bikes that are set up for what people need them for. I had to buy my own chainguard (from Germany), rack (from Germany), and dynamo hub (from Germany), just because nobody in the US sells any products that are any good. Heaven forbid someone buy a bicycle that could carry a load and wouldn't ruin their clothes.

I love working on my bike and tinkering with things... but most people don't. So they just buy a car, honk at the cyclists that are increasing their commute time by five seconds, and keep the cycle of fear, uncertainty, and doubt alive.