One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#121

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

ckastner wrote: post #45

jaggederest wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current point of concern is that I can go out and sit all evening without a mosquito bite. That was unheard of even 30 years ago when I was a kid. You'd be lucky if you didn't have one for every minute you spent outside. I think the insects are dying, and it's frightening. Second item would be watching the bison migrate on the plains. Literally horizon to horizon, a hundred thousand individuals or more in a group.…

I never understood why such changes -- dramatic as they may be -- were seen as a cause of concern, except in cases where the changes affected our food supply. Humans may be responsible for the decimation or outright extinction of entire species, but isn't that how Nature works? Nature has encountered countless extinctions before us (where's the Megalodon now?) and at least 5 mass extinctions, so why should this dynam…

Well I suppose the most pressing problem is that we will create conditions such that we ourselves are not longer able to survive, or at least some significant portion of us will not. Rising sea levels and increased extreme weather events will also cause substantial financial loss, even if you don't care about the loss of natural wonders.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#122

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

Steve44 wrote: post #78

ckastner wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why such changes -- dramatic as they may be -- were seen as a cause of concern, except in cases where the changes affected our food supply. Humans may be responsible for the decimation or outright extinction of entire species, but isn't that how Nature works? Nature has encountered countless extinctions before us (where's the Megalodon now?) and at least 5 mass extinctions, so why should this dynam…

I sometimes get a little irritated at some of the "save the planet" type arguments. The planet will be just fine, it's gone through a lot of changes over the years and will continue to go through changes. One example I often show is the sea levels 16,000 BC as explained here https://www.nationalgeographic.org/maps/doggerland/ by National Geographic. What is going to have problems is the health of the ever growing Hum…

That seems to be an almost willfully obtuse reading. Yes, obviously, Earth in some form will continue to exist whether we do anything about pollution or not.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#123

Post by eitally » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:49 PM UTC

cascom wrote: post #114

Eat more oysters! It blows my mind all of the ecological (and gastronomic benefits) of oyster-culture - especially in contrast to a report like this! Edit: Farmed oysters

Oysters themselves have been at high risk, at least where I come from (Virginia): http://www.virginiaplaces.org/natural/oysters.html

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#124

Post by NeedMoreTea » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #96

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awareness is relative. What you see in your formative years sets what's normal. Everything is relative to that. Older photos of abundance or massive piles of horseshoe crabs to be ground for fertiliser[0] are a strange alien world. People in their 20s are used to a lack of wildlife and consider it normal simply as that is what they grew up seeing, along with acres of monoculture in the "countryside". The almost insol…

That's a good point, and maybe a solution lies in it. When I read other comments about birds obscuring the sky, fishes you could caught by hand, etc. It seemed unreal, almost magical. A fairy tale on some Westeros-like world. If we can use this narrative to astonish people, and make them get perspective on what should be, it can be a powerful message. "Eat less meat", "recycle", "use less the car/plane" are not reall…

My normal at 18 saw summer trips that included stops to wipe the wildlife off the windscreen or visor. I can't remember the last time I did that - sure there's a few bugs, after a hundred miles or more.

I think it needs a multi-pronged approach. Inspiration is a great start, but it's fairly weak against a marketing machine spending billions inventing more nonexistent problems and needs.

We need to rediscover collective action, activism of the get off facebook and into the street to make someone's life difficult variety, regulation as a good thing (food safety laws, clean air acts, child labour laws etc), and stop pretending the market has the solution to everything.

That's a slightly challenging wishlist especially if we don't want to give up all the lifestyle in the process. :)

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#125

Post by frockington » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

waivek wrote: post #62

ponzored wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somalia population 1987: 6.1 million. 2017 population: 11.4 million. Just one country, but that might have something to do with it. 2100: 58 million. I can only imagine the environmental destruction that will go along with that. https://www.populationpyramid.net/somalia/2017/ Meanwhile, what do countries like Somalia produce to enrich our civilization? The country has zero scientific output: https://www.natureindex.c…

I agree. If I was a native American a few centuries ago I would also think something similar. What do Europeans contribute to us other than killing of our loved ones and almost extinguishing our race. A ballooning European population is not good.

Horses were a cause of celebration back then

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#126

Post by HankB99 » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #59

aaron695 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> E.g. lobsters were once so plentiful that native americans used them as fertilizer[0] I call total BS. Taking edible food, carting it and then plowing it into fields for edible food in 6 months time. Sounds like fantasy. Fish Fertilizer: A Native North American Practice? http://science.sciencemag.org/content/188/4183/26 DOI: 10.1126/science.188.4183.26

Lobsters weren't always "edible", not sure how it was viewed in Native American culture But if they're more than what you can eat and if using them as fertilizer works, why not

Before refrigeration and large glass tanks the time between edibility and putrefaction was probably on the order of hours.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#127

Post by TheBeardKing » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #111

swebs wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget "solving world hunger" which means causing a human population boom, exasperating the above problems.

We never really had a technological problem about world hunger. It was political. Social. But humanity has been able to produce food for everybody for centuries. It just happens we don't share it and we waste it. I think energy, peace and hygiene are a better factor in baby booming. They contribute to a better food distribution as well.

Efficiently transporting food or growing it where people need it is certainly a technological/logistical problem.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#128

Post by animal531 » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 2:06 PM UTC

jaggederest wrote: post #14

mncharity wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that change blindness, I wonder if an interesting component of teaching history could be to emphasize 'things you would find jaw-droppingly different if you were dropped back in time'? Precise arrangements for where/when to meet ("at 10:10, on the corner of mumble and mumble") - because no cell phones. Boston Python, having an unusually large turnout... so someone needed to pull up an extra chair to the confere…

My current point of concern is that I can go out and sit all evening without a mosquito bite. That was unheard of even 30 years ago when I was a kid. You'd be lucky if you didn't have one for every minute you spent outside. I think the insects are dying, and it's frightening. Second item would be watching the bison migrate on the plains. Literally horizon to horizon, a hundred thousand individuals or more in a group.…

Where I live in South Africa the local Springbok deer herds were so large that they were once recorded to take 5 days to pass a camp.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#129

Post by Fnoord » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 2:09 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #84

dajohnson89 wrote: post #5

One of the more depressing things to read, is how back in the early days of America, one could just reach into the river/sea and grab a fish. E.g. lobsters were once so plentiful that native americans used them as fertilizer[0]. And there's photographic evidence of overfishing too. [1] is a nice NPR piece about how the largest catch of the year at a particular spot in Florida has been dwindling. [0] - http://www.gma.…

Equally terrible is the same comparison about bugs, but it's easier to make people flip because it happened in our lifetime (recent and so fast!): When I was young, I was driving a small bike. Having mosquitoes or flies clouds was a common occurrence on the road and the best motivator to wear a helmet for a youngster not bothered by security. Nowadays, I'm still driving a bike, although a bigger one. But I encounter…

> Having mosquitoes or flies clouds was a common occurrence on the road and the best motivator to wear a helmet for a youngster not bothered by security.

Debatable. In The Netherlands, except for professional cyclers people who drive bicycles generally don't wear helmets. If they'd do, they'd look like profs and then cars keep less distance, which is an increased danger. A cap and glasses works fine for me with regards to sun and getting things in my eyes (sand is still annoying at times), just don't drive with your mouth open.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#130

Post by sametmax » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

TheBeardKing wrote: post #127

sametmax wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never really had a technological problem about world hunger. It was political. Social. But humanity has been able to produce food for everybody for centuries. It just happens we don't share it and we waste it. I think energy, peace and hygiene are a better factor in baby booming. They contribute to a better food distribution as well.

Efficiently transporting food or growing it where people need it is certainly a technological/logistical problem.

Right. I meant food production technologies.

But even then, people don't need that much food to be healthy. A regular human being can live happy with one meal a day. We are just used to more.

The population was also much lower in the past.

The problem is more about:

- war

- people not helping each others

- a small group of people keeping a lot of it for themself (royalty, rich cast, etc)

And of course now we face a novel problem: the fact our population is getting huge and want to eat meat 2 times a day.