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One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

theguardian.com

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Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#31

Post by ekr »

jaggederest wrote: post #14
mncharity wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that change blindness, I wonder if an interesting component of teaching history could be to emphasize 'things you would find jaw-droppingly different if you were dropped back in time'? Precise arrangements for where/when to meet ("at 10:10, on the corner of mumble and mumble") - because no cell phones. Boston Python, having an unusually large turnout... so someone needed to pull up an extra chair to the confere…

My current point of concern is that I can go out and sit all evening without a mosquito bite. That was unheard of even 30 years ago when I was a kid. You'd be lucky if you didn't have one for every minute you spent outside. I think the insects are dying, and it's frightening. Second item would be watching the bison migrate on the plains. Literally horizon to horizon, a hundred thousand individuals or more in a group.…

My experience of this is that 10-15 years ago, when I was a child, my dad would often take us on road trips by car, sometimes arriving home late into the night. (the trips were around Central Europe)

The headlights, windshield and parts of the body were always significantly covered by dead insects.

For the past 5 years or so however, they have almost always been perfectly clean. This has amazed me.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#32

Post by ItsMe000001 »

cageface wrote: post #26
TeMPOraL wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which solves exactly nothing, until a significant chunk of the world's population does the same too. And then we'll have depressing articles about poor fishermen who found themselves unemployed and unemployable. The problem is unfortunately very complex and in need of some large-scale, targeted effort.

This is the appeal to futility fallacy and can be used to make an argument against doing just about anything. By not eating fish you become part of the solution instead of part of the problem. And the poor fishermen are going to be unemployed soon enough at the current rate of overfishing because there won't be anything left for them to catch anyway. The bycatch for sushi fish is even worse than the figure given in t…

It's not a "fallacy", the problem is real. Check your mental model with reality. Disregard the "if" that your mental model relies on ("if enough people did it it would work") and look at what actually happens, and do so separately for different issues, because they all have different contexts and complexities. If those "if"s that your argument depends on never materialize in the real world then the model you use is useless. "Possible" vs. "likely".

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#33

Post by TeMPOraL »

cageface wrote: post #26
TeMPOraL wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which solves exactly nothing, until a significant chunk of the world's population does the same too. And then we'll have depressing articles about poor fishermen who found themselves unemployed and unemployable. The problem is unfortunately very complex and in need of some large-scale, targeted effort.

This is the appeal to futility fallacy and can be used to make an argument against doing just about anything. By not eating fish you become part of the solution instead of part of the problem. And the poor fishermen are going to be unemployed soon enough at the current rate of overfishing because there won't be anything left for them to catch anyway. The bycatch for sushi fish is even worse than the figure given in t…

It's not an appeal to futility, it's pointing out the reality of the problem.

My marginal impact on the problem is negligible. The issue only manifests itself on a very large scale. Therefore, any solution involving "just stop eating fish" needs to explain a strategy to achieve this change of behavior on a large scale. Note that simply telling people on the Internet to change is not a working strategy - for each individual, again, the impact is marginal, but individual sacrifice required is great, so most people will just shrug and go on with their lives.

Want to make a change? Sure, stop eating fish if you want to signal your commitment. But don't stop at that, because at this point you've achieved nothing. Work to have more impact. Some particular bottom-up and top-down areas I can outline that mesh nicely together:

- Work to make the idea of not eating fish more popular. If you can convince a few hundred thousand people to stop eating fish, then maybe it'll actually show up somewhere on some spreadsheet in a fishing company. Be careful not to become like PETA though - if you're too hard about the topic, people will start eating more fish just out of spite.

- Make it easier for people to stop eating fish. That involves creating and popularizing new foodstuffs that are substitute to fish, but have better ecological footprint.

- The ultimate goal: work towards making the cost of fish products correctly account for externalities. That is, making them (much) more expensive. This involves finding ways to correctly estimate the costs of ecological impact, and then convincing regulators to make fishing industry pay this cost in taxes. Also, you'll want to fight various fishing subsidies that further hide the true costs. You'll make enemies along the way. But this is something that must happen, as it is the real solution. The previous two examples I gave are only supportive to this one. Fish must get more expensive. That's the efficient way of achieving a mass change of behaviour.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#34

Post by pcthrowaway »

cageface wrote: post #26
TeMPOraL wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which solves exactly nothing, until a significant chunk of the world's population does the same too. And then we'll have depressing articles about poor fishermen who found themselves unemployed and unemployable. The problem is unfortunately very complex and in need of some large-scale, targeted effort.

This is the appeal to futility fallacy and can be used to make an argument against doing just about anything. By not eating fish you become part of the solution instead of part of the problem. And the poor fishermen are going to be unemployed soon enough at the current rate of overfishing because there won't be anything left for them to catch anyway. The bycatch for sushi fish is even worse than the figure given in t…

Lab-grown fish is going to be a very ecologically sustainable solution hitting the market in the next few years, which will also leave the "poor fishermen" out of work. Like the drivers displaced by autonomous vehicles, I don't think that should stop us from seeking more sustainable and efficient models, instead it should be a wake-up call to our governing class that we need to reexamine our wealth distribution programs.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#35

Post by Arnt »

rollulus wrote: post #23

If news like this upsets you, there's an easy solution: just stop eating fish.

WTF?

I'm also upset by the large percentage of slaughtered animals that isn't eaten. Do you have an easy solution for me, just stop eating those species of animals?

I'm also upset by the large percentage of vegetables that's thrown away by the shops. Do you have an easy solution for me, just stop eating vegetables?

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#36

Post by leroman »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #24
rollulus wrote: post #23

If news like this upsets you, there's an easy solution: just stop eating fish.

Which solves exactly nothing, until a significant chunk of the world's population does the same too. And then we'll have depressing articles about poor fishermen who found themselves unemployed and unemployable. The problem is unfortunately very complex and in need of some large-scale, targeted effort.

You are simply wrong. I am vegetarian now for 10 years, I have been hearing the same de-motivational talk since I started. (but less so now) Ten years ago there were not so many vegetarians or vegans, now Israel (I read) is one of the leading countries in the ratio of vegetarians in the population. Don't be discouraged, if you stop eating fish, friends will hear and some will get inspired and do the same. Eventually many will make the same decision. These processes take time.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#37

Post by cageface »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #33
cageface wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the appeal to futility fallacy and can be used to make an argument against doing just about anything. By not eating fish you become part of the solution instead of part of the problem. And the poor fishermen are going to be unemployed soon enough at the current rate of overfishing because there won't be anything left for them to catch anyway. The bycatch for sushi fish is even worse than the figure given in t…

It's not an appeal to futility, it's pointing out the reality of the problem. My marginal impact on the problem is negligible. The issue only manifests itself on a very large scale. Therefore, any solution involving "just stop eating fish" needs to explain a strategy to achieve this change of behavior on a large scale . Note that simply telling people on the Internet to change is not a working strategy - for each ind…

Those are all good ideas, I agree, and I commend anyone with the dedication to pursue them. But even just not eating fish and setting a positive example to your friends and colleagues etc is still worth doing. I became vegan because of the example of a friend and several of my friends, while not vegan, have been eating less meat & fish as a consequence of my example and are more conscious in the choice of the meat & fish they do eat.

I'd love to see the animal agriculture industries forced to pay for their externalities but I doubt it's going to happen any time soon. But in the meantime a lot of positive change has come just from people being made more aware of where what they eat comes from and what it costs to get it there. Non-dairy milks have become so popular, for example, that they've put a huge dent in the dairy industry's profits.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#38

Post by lsh »

hurpaDurpa wrote: post #19
mncharity wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that change blindness, I wonder if an interesting component of teaching history could be to emphasize 'things you would find jaw-droppingly different if you were dropped back in time'? Precise arrangements for where/when to meet ("at 10:10, on the corner of mumble and mumble") - because no cell phones. Boston Python, having an unusually large turnout... so someone needed to pull up an extra chair to the confere…

extinct and unGoogleable Christmas Tree Birds Wait a second, what are "Christmas Tree Birds"?

exactly!

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#39

Post by GreeniFi »

Fish catch in East Africa is down 75% in 30 years. That’s huge - given increased population, hunting effort and “fishing down the food chain”, as species previously not eaten are now fished. There will undoubtedly be substitution - but we barely understand the 2nd order effects, let alone 3rd , 4rth and 5th.

Re: One in three fish caught never makes it to the plate – UN report

#40

Post by jaggederest »

jonhendry18 wrote: post #27
jaggederest wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current point of concern is that I can go out and sit all evening without a mosquito bite. That was unheard of even 30 years ago when I was a kid. You'd be lucky if you didn't have one for every minute you spent outside. I think the insects are dying, and it's frightening. Second item would be watching the bison migrate on the plains. Literally horizon to horizon, a hundred thousand individuals or more in a group.…

The mosquito situation might be due to the availability of CO2 based mosquito traps. You don't mention where you're located but perhaps you're in an area that isn't as hospitable for mosquito breeding as the location where you were a kid.

Family has lived on the same land in a very rural area for 38 years, so that is not really applicable. I would doubt there are enough mosquito traps in the county to make a difference.
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