ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts” • Hacker News Board

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#111

Post by cptskippy » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:08 AM UTC

snom380 wrote: post #40

cptskippy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would an open source processor be better from a security perspective? I might still be a little shell shocked from my attempts to setup a MythTV Box 10 years ago but this is what's running through my head: "Did you RTFM?" "Debain CPU doesn't have that issue." "Just disable the ALUs in firmware, they're not necessary in modern processors anyways." "That's been patched, just download processor v2.3.4.432 and send i…

While the comparison to MythTV for a fun coment, this is exactly what ARM would like the high level decision makers to feel. Just as Microsoft tried with their "get the facts" campaign years ago. Notwithstanding your terrible MythTV experience, there's seveal companies offering commercial support for Linux today, and a lot of effort has been put into making it as secure as the Windows equivalent. I suspect the same c…

Another comment mentioned Western Digital switching to RISC-V which makes a lot of sense and that's about it. I'm struggling to see how RISC-V would improve the situation with edge devices or personal computing devices where the implementations will probably end up being propriety in nature and beholden to the vendor for any updates.

Even when we do get something like a custom ROM for a router or smartphone it will still be reliant on custom kernel modules or other lock-ins hindering open source support.

It just feels like more of the same with a chance for ODMs to save some on the BOM while not passing the savings on to us.

I guess it's just hard to get excited about it without seeing some sort of benefit to the end user. That doesn't mean I feel like we should stick with ARM or x86, I frankly don't care.

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#112

Post by _chris_ » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:31 AM UTC

ATsch wrote: post #104

snvzz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Whoever is thinking today about replacing some production anything with a RISC-V You're saying they're all wrong? https://riscv.org/membership/

well, there's a difference in supporting a technology and actually making chips with it. They are just investing in tech and research that might help them down the road. I doubt any of those companies (aside from SiFive) will be actually using RiscV within the next few years.

Off the top of my head, Western Digital and NVIDIA have both announced using RISC-V in their upcoming products.

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#113

Post by _chris_ » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:36 AM UTC

childintime wrote: post #103

Let's not forget ARM sold out to Softbank right about when RISC-V was picking up steam (2016). As engineers they probably saw it coming. The bankers not so much.

And then they started raising the licensing fees. Man what bad timing.

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#114

Post by snvzz » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 4:16 AM UTC

deepnotderp wrote: post #92

deepnotderp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any of them unless they have specific modifications for mitigation.

Any of them that uses speculative execution to be clear, if it wasn't apparent.

Potentially.

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#115

Post by snvzz » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 4:20 AM UTC

ATsch wrote: post #104

snvzz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Whoever is thinking today about replacing some production anything with a RISC-V You're saying they're all wrong? https://riscv.org/membership/

well, there's a difference in supporting a technology and actually making chips with it. They are just investing in tech and research that might help them down the road. I doubt any of those companies (aside from SiFive) will be actually using RiscV within the next few years.

Besides the ones already noted, Qualcomm and others who make SoCs with custom CPU design (rather than using ARM Cortex) are paying ARM tax just to use the ISA.

I imagine RISC-V is attractive to them.

A lot of these SoCs become the core of smartphones. Did I mention Google (of Android fame) is also a member?

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#116

Post by pjmlp » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 5:51 AM UTC

squarefoot wrote: post #105

pjmlp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As with Linux & Windows servers c.1999, who would you bet on winning in the end? It was more about UNIX & Windows. Linux won on the servers thanks to majority of UNIX guys cutting down costs by outsourcing their development costs into Linux. Had Linux not gotten the money of IBM, HP, Compaq, SGI, Intel, Oracle, Sun, Google, ...., the outcome would have looked much different.

"Had Linux not gotten the money of IBM, HP, Compaq, SGI, Intel, Oracle, Sun, Google, ...., the outcome would have looked much different." Linux would win anyway. I've worked in the late 90s-early2k in places which were then already planning the move from proprietary Unix to Linux, some of them also in pretty critical contexts. Most of the companies you mention already had their own Unix: AIX, Digital Unix / Tru64, Ir…

> UNIX guys cutting down costs by outsourcing their development costs into Linux.

Apparently people can't read.

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#117

Post by reacweb » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 7:11 AM UTC

Uberphallus wrote: post #47

A friend works in ARM and was extremely surprised (negatively) when I shared this link with him RISC-V may, perhaps, compete in two fields with ARM: education, where ARM doesn't give a fuck, and hacker boards, which is a tiny market compared to smartphones, smarttvs and so on. There have been around 15 million Raspberry Pi (the most popular SBC) sold in 6 years. Samsung sold 321 million smartphones last year alone. W…

In 1994, less than 0.1% of computers were running Linux (kernel). Now, it is everywhere.

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#118

Post by nickik » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 9:59 AM UTC

Uberphallus wrote: post #47

A friend works in ARM and was extremely surprised (negatively) when I shared this link with him RISC-V may, perhaps, compete in two fields with ARM: education, where ARM doesn't give a fuck, and hacker boards, which is a tiny market compared to smartphones, smarttvs and so on. There have been around 15 million Raspberry Pi (the most popular SBC) sold in 6 years. Samsung sold 321 million smartphones last year alone. W…

That's extremely reductive and wrong.

Just because something is sold often does not magically make it better or useful for specific peruses. How does it help Nvidia that ARM sells millions of cheap when they design an internal chip?

The are lots of places RISC-V can be used productively, and companies like NVidia, Google and WD are already doing so.

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#119

Post by ATsch » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 11:13 AM UTC

snvzz wrote: post #115

ATsch wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, there's a difference in supporting a technology and actually making chips with it. They are just investing in tech and research that might help them down the road. I doubt any of those companies (aside from SiFive) will be actually using RiscV within the next few years.

Besides the ones already noted, Qualcomm and others who make SoCs with custom CPU design (rather than using ARM Cortex) are paying ARM tax just to use the ISA. I imagine RISC-V is attractive to them. A lot of these SoCs become the core of smartphones. Did I mention Google (of Android fame) is also a member?

Sure, I'm just arguing that these should be seen more as strategic investments than as sign that these companies are about to roll out RISC-V chips right now, like GP implied.

Re: ARM: “RISC-V Architecture: Understand the Facts”

#120

Post by bmcusick » Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

flurrything wrote: post #106

bmcusick wrote: post #91

Looking forward to "The Year of the RISC-V Desktop" articles. That's a joke, but I think Windows vs. Linux is the right reference frame here, assuming that RISC-V proves out. Those who want to roll their own and control their own destiny may go with RISC-V, while those who want a packaged solution will go ARM. And ARM will have to get better to compete. Western Digital has gone with RISC-V for a controller, because W…

Jokes aside. Since February you can already buy RISC-V SoCs that run Linux... at pretty high prices, e.g., https://www.crowdsupply.com/sifive/hifive-unleashed costs 1000$ bucks and the expansion board costs 2000$... Still not practical for the masses, but not more expensive than similar extravagant architectures like PowerPCs (IIRC a PowerPC9 desktop system costs about 9000$ today). Someone joked that you could get a…

Oh, I'm sure that there will be hobbyists who do this. Just like there are people who run Arch on their home PC, or automate their house with Arduinos. The joke about "The Year of the Linux Desktop" is predicting mass consumer adoption. That doesn't seem too likely, unless someone like Apple or Google decides to move their stack over to silicon they can design and control in-house without need for ARM's long term support.