Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized • Hacker News Board

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#141

Post by api » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #135

darawk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's weird because people compare it to the early days of the Internet... but the early Internet was useful from its beginning That really depends on where you put 'beginning'. But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet). Also, just like the internet wasn't. > Now, all we see is rampant fraud and a complete d…

> But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet) How long do we have to wait to find a valid use case for blockchains? It's been 10 years now and we're still asking the same question.

The main use case for block chains is quite obviously to skirt government regulation: black markets, unregulated securities and quasi-securities, etc. A secondary and related use case is to avoid the hassle and complexity of old fashioned equity and other fund raising constructs and to make easier international wire transfers.

Putting ethical concerns aside: these are very large market segments. Cryptocurrencies may be overvalued but there's definitely a real use case. It's just not a use case that governments, banks, or conventional VCs like.

I feel like all the claims to the effect that cryptocurrencies have no use case are ignoring the obvious.

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#142

Post by eximius » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

na85 wrote: post #126

darawk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's weird because people compare it to the early days of the Internet... but the early Internet was useful from its beginning That really depends on where you put 'beginning'. But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet). Also, just like the internet wasn't. > Now, all we see is rampant fraud and a complete d…

>blockchains are useful now Honest question: for what? I've yet to hear a use case where blockchains are actually solving a problem, other than "buy things on the black market".

I think that the EVM hasn't found its great use yet. But Cryptocurrencies in general are being used widely for international currency movements and as currency in distressed countries like Venezuela where the 'black market' is just the regular market due to government instability.

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#143

Post by debt » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #98

hudon wrote: post #23

You can see the state (volume, # daily users) of some of these promised "dapps" here: https://dappradar.com . It is indeed a barren wasteland. And when a new popular ICO comes along, the Ethereum network struggles and fees skyrocket. It's weird because people compare it to the early days of the Internet... but the early Internet was useful from its beginning: you could at least send messages and files across the netw…

> It's weird because people compare it to the early days of the Internet... but the early Internet was useful from its beginning That really depends on where you put 'beginning'. But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet). Also, just like the internet wasn't. > Now, all we see is rampant fraud and a complete d…

"...then you're just not thinking very hard."

Seems with all the rampant fraud that it's the developers that aren't thinking very hard.

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#144

Post by dnautics » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #135

darawk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's weird because people compare it to the early days of the Internet... but the early Internet was useful from its beginning That really depends on where you put 'beginning'. But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet). Also, just like the internet wasn't. > Now, all we see is rampant fraud and a complete d…

> But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet) How long do we have to wait to find a valid use case for blockchains? It's been 10 years now and we're still asking the same question.

I've definitely transferred assets to someone anonymously (not for anything illicit, it was strictly a non quid-pro-quo charitable act) using Bitcoin. I did not want this person to know who I was because I didn't want them to feel like they owed me anything.

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#145

Post by empath75 » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

ENGNR wrote: post #127

lucasmullens wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would blockchains redistribute wealth away from the wealthy?

Securities deregulation. On the one hand, investors deserve protections. On the other, has the regulation gone too far by design, locking out the middle class it used to serve so well. Why do companies wait until most of the value is already realized before they IPO these days Crypto could be Uber for securities, ignoring the regulator and using technology to self regulate, or by operating out of countries with light…

This is one of the most naive, starry-eyed posts I’ve ever seen here.

If you deregulate securities you’re just going to see a whole bunch of senior citizens fleeced by high tech boiler rooms.

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#146

Post by harryh » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #12

So I've been doing alot of thinking lately about traditional VC and PE vs ICO's for work. Its pretty rare for VC and PE firms to just be blatantly ripped off like a good portion of ICO investors are. As far as I can this is due to 3 things. 1) Geography, Most VC/PE firms only invest in a particular country and know the laws as they relate to the contracts they sign with companies. This ensures that they can atleast t…

This reason is more important than either of the reasons you list:

VC/PE firms are, by and large, staffed with professionals. ICO investors are, by and large, amateurs (I settled on this word, after starting with several less nice ones).

Amateurs are much more likely to get scammed than professionals.

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#147

Post by ENGNR » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

NathanCH wrote: post #51

matte_black wrote: post #29

Is there legit money to be made in ICOs without running a fraud?

Forget money, I would like to know of one legit ICO. One single ICO that has a product. One.

Golem has a working product, integrated into blender. It lets users trade rendering time with each other

It works well for 3D graphics because it's easy to verify the work was done and it's low risk. With more encryption research the model would work for more types of computing

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#148

Post by CaptainZapp » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #98

hudon wrote: post #23

You can see the state (volume, # daily users) of some of these promised "dapps" here: https://dappradar.com . It is indeed a barren wasteland. And when a new popular ICO comes along, the Ethereum network struggles and fees skyrocket. It's weird because people compare it to the early days of the Internet... but the early Internet was useful from its beginning: you could at least send messages and files across the netw…

> It's weird because people compare it to the early days of the Internet... but the early Internet was useful from its beginning That really depends on where you put 'beginning'. But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet). Also, just like the internet wasn't. > Now, all we see is rampant fraud and a complete d…

But if you think it's all a fraud, or that there is no value, then you're just not thinking very hard.

Seriously: Where is the actual value of crypto currencies?

I can see specific (limited) applications for the blockchain.

But you assert that people (who may have thought long and hard about the utility of crypto currencies) are lazy thinkers.

At the very minimum you could provide an argument instead of throwing around insults.

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#149

Post by darawk » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #135

darawk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's weird because people compare it to the early days of the Internet... but the early Internet was useful from its beginning That really depends on where you put 'beginning'. But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet). Also, just like the internet wasn't. > Now, all we see is rampant fraud and a complete d…

> But more to the point, blockchains are useful now, just like the internet was. They're just not useful for all the things that are being promised (yet) How long do we have to wait to find a valid use case for blockchains? It's been 10 years now and we're still asking the same question.

> How long do we have to wait to find a valid use case for blockchains? It's been 10 years now and we're still asking the same question.

Here are some use cases that I think are potentially legit:

  - Value transfer
  - Prediction markets
  - Asset trading/custody (not just cryptoassets, I mean, potentially real estate, equities, etc. can be tokenized)
  - Venture capital that is more transparent and open (the ICO space is obviously not there yet, but I think it can move in that direction)

Re: Half of ICOs Die Within Four Months After Token Sales Finalized

#150

Post by hudon » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #140

hudon wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. What if we put "beginning" as in "before it was even called the Internet"? Indeed, ARPANET, which came online in 1969, saw fast growth in the United States in the 70s. Nodes came online to use it , not to make a quick buck. The government subsidized it because its potential use was obvious. Email started being used in 1972, FTP in 1973. To compare these world-changing technologies that were invented and used merel…

> What if we put "beginning" as in "before it was even called the Internet"? Indeed, ARPANET, which came online in 1969, saw fast growth in the United States in the 70s. Nodes came online to use it, not to make a quick buck. People use cryptocurrency too. For value transfer, and to a more limited extent, for dapps like Augur. You seem to be criticizing the delta between the lofty hopes for it and it's actual usage. T…

> People use cryptocurrency too. For value transfer, and to a more limited extent, for dapps like Augur.

Soooo, buying drugs and illegal gambling? Sure, I'll give you that one.

My argument rephrased: "Because cryptocurrency investors have repeatedly made claims that don't pan out, we can be reasonably skeptical and concerned about their energy consumption until they actually fix it or at the very least provide peer-reviewed scientific analysis on how it will be fixed."