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What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

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Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#71

Post by emodendroket »

marcosdumay wrote: post #58
hguhghuff wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone not want the power of an ide? Is it a Unix tough guy thing where there’s nothing that a GUI app does that you can’t do better in a terminal? Or is it that you’ve never really spent a lot of time in a professional ide so when you argue against it, it’s cause you don’t know?

An IDE gives you: 1 - Autocomplete and automatic code, those are the main benefit. Turns out that if your computer can write code for you there is something wrong with either your language or your code. Code generation is a bad replacement for code abstraction. 2 - On the fly error checking. Turns out that vi and emacs do that too. 3 - Coherent access to compiling and debugging tools. As long as you want to use the I…

The on-the-fly error and smell checking Emacs does is better than nothing but it's on a different level than a good IDE.

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#72

Post by VonGallifrey »

emodendroket wrote: post #68
VonGallifrey wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every IDE or text editor I have ever used had very limited text manipulation and navigation capabilities. The only exceptions are VIM and Emacs (and editors that follow that spirit, like Neovim). Vim especially has an entire language of text manipulation and navigation features. This language is made up of actions (like c for change or d for delete), Motions (like hjkl for left, up, down, right respectively) and Repe…

This stuff is all supported by IDEs, though. e.g., https://github.com/JetBrains/ideavim

These kind of Vim emulators are not really providing the full vim experience. Some come close (like Emacs Evil Mode), but most just don't. Most are just scratching the surface of stock vim.

Not even the vim experience when using plugins, just stock vim.

I tried ideaVim and while I do not remember what my specific problems where, you can read their ReadMe for a glimpse that they have a lot of issues still.

Even IF they would provide a decent enough vim emulation, why use something emulated when I can have all the IDE features in Vim itself.

Also: Vim plugins that provide IDE features are purposefully build with the way vim works. Providing advanced IDE functionality in a Modal Editing environment. This can not be said about an IDE with vim emulation. As far as I can see they implement those features as ":action " which is so much worse then what vim can do.

IntelliJ + IdeaVim is simply a worse Text editor then Vim despite being significantly more bloated and slower and I would even say that Vim with plugins is a much better IDE as well (while STILL being less bloated and faster).

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#73

Post by VonGallifrey »

timrichard wrote: post #69
VonGallifrey wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every IDE or text editor I have ever used had very limited text manipulation and navigation capabilities. The only exceptions are VIM and Emacs (and editors that follow that spirit, like Neovim). Vim especially has an entire language of text manipulation and navigation features. This language is made up of actions (like c for change or d for delete), Motions (like hjkl for left, up, down, right respectively) and Repe…

Been doing all that happily for years with IdeaVIM. And still retaining access to the things that are nice in a graphical environment.

IdeaVIM is not good. I have tried it and for me it just pales in comparison to just vim. I can get all my IDE features in vim anyways.

I don't use java though, so maybe that would be different if I where using Java.

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#74

Post by j45 »

abledon wrote: post #55
j45 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have generally always learned from books. Today's increased use of videos helps with high level explanations, but video can't keep up with changes as quickly as text can.

videos where I can watch the developer coding are the best for my style of learning. really sticks seeing it executed rather than showing some powerpoint slides of high level diagrams and code snippets.

I prefer a combination of videos and books. It doesn't seem realistic with how content is packaged and delivered that one or the other entirely can work on their own.

I'm not sure where the idea of powerpoints came from. Well written books generally read like videos. Books have the added benefit that it's easier to jump around and drill down right to what you are looking for, something that's generally harder to hop around on the timeline of a video.

Still, Videos are excellent to watch for many things.

Updating videos though is tough, and it can cause videos to not be as up to date and indepth.

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#75

Post by bungie4 »

big_youth wrote: post #39
bungie4 wrote: post #29

I wouldn't. I'd learn a trade. Not to be facetious, I'm serious. I love programming. I never played video games, I spent my free time learning basic and then assembler in the late 80's. At the time, I was custom cabinet maker. I eventually become allergic to the 'smell' in oak, causing health problems. I had to give it up. I was busy 8 hours a day. I made decent money. Theirs a certain satisfaction at the end of the…

The grass is always greener. I grew up in a working class neighborhood where the majority of my friends parents and high school friends later became involved in trades. My high school had a trades program for mechanics, HVAC, electricians, plumbing, and a beauty school. The vast majority are NOT making six figures. The work is hard, has long hours, and is physically exhausting. My grandpa was a welder/machine shop ow…

Just for a point of reference, I've been a Cabinet Maker, Welder, Powder Coater, Skid nailer, punch press operator and more. Believe me, I understand blue collar. I was in my 30's before I worked professionally as a programmer.

I currently live in a town that is resource based, mining and forestry. The epitome of blue-collar. Believe me, those guys make double what I do with bonuses and benefits. Even without, they make significantly more than I do. It isn't uncommon for a worker in this town to be able to retire by 45. They work until they are offered early retirement, or, have their pensions bought out. All this with very little education beyond 'common-core' in the mining sector. Ya, they bust their asses. But they're paid for it. So, ya, you raise valid points, but I'll stick with my first hand experience. Have you ever worked blue-collar or just second had info as you present.

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#76

Post by emodendroket »

VonGallifrey wrote: post #72
emodendroket wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stuff is all supported by IDEs, though. e.g., https://github.com/JetBrains/ideavim

These kind of Vim emulators are not really providing the full vim experience. Some come close (like Emacs Evil Mode), but most just don't. Most are just scratching the surface of stock vim. Not even the vim experience when using plugins, just stock vim. I tried ideaVim and while I do not remember what my specific problems where, you can read their ReadMe for a glimpse that they have a lot of issues still. Even IF the…

I was always more of an Emacs guy so I can't speak to that specifically, but in your big list of examples there's nothing that wouldn't work, as far as I can tell.

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#77

Post by marcosdumay »

emodendroket wrote: post #71
marcosdumay wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An IDE gives you: 1 - Autocomplete and automatic code, those are the main benefit. Turns out that if your computer can write code for you there is something wrong with either your language or your code. Code generation is a bad replacement for code abstraction. 2 - On the fly error checking. Turns out that vi and emacs do that too. 3 - Coherent access to compiling and debugging tools. As long as you want to use the I…

The on-the-fly error and smell checking Emacs does is better than nothing but it's on a different level than a good IDE.

Hum...

It marks the failures found by the CLI compilers and linters, exactly like any "good IDE" out there. What IDE are you referring to?

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#78

Post by emodendroket »

marcosdumay wrote: post #77
emodendroket wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The on-the-fly error and smell checking Emacs does is better than nothing but it's on a different level than a good IDE.

Hum... It marks the failures found by the CLI compilers and linters, exactly like any "good IDE" out there. What IDE are you referring to?

I'm mostly an IntelliJ (and variants: RubyMine, Webstorm, Rider, PhpStorm, etc.) user, although I also use Visual Studio. In my experience, Emacs plugins for many languages often have a feel of working more on looking for matching words in the code rather than "understanding" what the code is doing, let alone suggesting good refactors.

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#79

Post by aplummer »

bungie4 wrote: post #75
big_youth wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grass is always greener. I grew up in a working class neighborhood where the majority of my friends parents and high school friends later became involved in trades. My high school had a trades program for mechanics, HVAC, electricians, plumbing, and a beauty school. The vast majority are NOT making six figures. The work is hard, has long hours, and is physically exhausting. My grandpa was a welder/machine shop ow…

Just for a point of reference, I've been a Cabinet Maker, Welder, Powder Coater, Skid nailer, punch press operator and more. Believe me, I understand blue collar. I was in my 30's before I worked professionally as a programmer. I currently live in a town that is resource based, mining and forestry. The epitome of blue-collar. Believe me, those guys make double what I do with bonuses and benefits. Even without, they m…

> They can work practically anywhere and make the same amount of money

You are contradicting yourself by saying you’re in a boom town and also they can move anywhere. (Can they move to Thailand? I can move to Thailand as a programmer). In a mine in Australia you can make 6 figures standing at a gate and letting trucks through, or higher to drive the truck, but it’s specific.

I think their mobility would definitely be worse that a programmers.

> I'll stick with my first hand experience. Have you ever worked blue-collar or just second had info as you present.

I don’t think anecdotes are a good example here. Something like https://data.gov.au/dataset/taxation-statistics-2013-14/reso... would be better.

Re: What I would do differently if I was learning to program again

#80

Post by marcosdumay »

emodendroket wrote: post #78
marcosdumay wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hum... It marks the failures found by the CLI compilers and linters, exactly like any "good IDE" out there. What IDE are you referring to?

I'm mostly an IntelliJ (and variants: RubyMine, Webstorm, Rider, PhpStorm, etc.) user, although I also use Visual Studio. In my experience, Emacs plugins for many languages often have a feel of working more on looking for matching words in the code rather than "understanding" what the code is doing, let alone suggesting good refactors.

IntelliJ's linters are indeed unusually rich on the deepness and complexity of their rules. But not on the universality, the reason that I consider them unusable, since I just don't like to turn rules off.

Anyway, that's a feature of their linters. It just happens to be packaged with their IDE, but it's a completely different tool.

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