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Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

nytimes.com

191–200 of 223 posts

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#191
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intervene how? The governments and corporations of the "Free World" will only pander to China, for “access to their market”, and individuals can't do much against a regime that would happily mow its own citizens down with tanks and then erase all memory of the event within a single generation. [0] Maybe independent developers could put a notice against Chinese authoritarianism in their apps and services when they're…

In your case, not egging it on would be a start even. There is no bottom to this abyss. There is no limit to the number of victims, the upper ceiling for that is 100%, or a gazillion people. There is no limit to their innocence, and no limit to the cruelty inflicted on them. There is no time limit, either. You say this because for you as an individual, it's easier rationalizing that non-resistance will somehow lead t…

Writing all that here is all well and good but until developers and engineers STOP caving in and bending over backwards to accommodate and help China implement that authoritarian nightmare, it's all just words that will not change anything.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#192

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

" The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to keep going."

One problem with this is that since NEWS and almost all media is State-owned in China, there might be protests and we might be unaware, also the protesters are straightaway sentenced plus now even their family members get "negative points" if I am not mistaken. There's a reason why Chinese people living outside also dont say negatively.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#193
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storing feeds of each camera is got to be expensive. I thought about recording my life. It would be too expensive for me to do surveillance on myself 24/7 and then do analysis on the feeds. And i make more than the median Chinese or american.

The government doesn't need to store the video, just the processed data, such as each person's history of locations, emotional states, interactions, and actions. Analysis is automated and thus scalable to the entire country. The underlying technology improves exponentially, so everyone underestimates the social impact that this will have in a decade.

So you agree storing 24/7 video on a billion people is not practical today. I don’t think processing is practical either. Processed output can be bigger than source depending on what you want to do and doesn’t remove the need to store original data to get value out of it always.

Technology has improved exponentially in the past. No guarantee it will continue. Ram prices are double from a year ago. Gpu prices are also not much better than 2 years ago.

Luckily we have improvements in m.2 ssds.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#194
"China is reversing the commonly held vision of technology as a great democratizer"

I think it's near impossible to broach the topic without bringing in worldview & speculation, but..

Lets take a look at why that notion of democratizing technology existed in the first place. I think there are a few dispirate ones.

First, there is the adoption curve many recent "technologies." Penicilin & uimunization, paved roads & electricity... These technologies took generations before they reached 50% of the population, and are only now approaching the "last mile" phase.

Mobile phones, celular internet, facebook, google, digital money... these reached third world farmers fast, anywehre from a a couple of decades to a couple of years. That is democracratic in the "everyone gets it." sense

Another definiton is a sort of capitalist/liberal one. The internet was a democratic latform in terms of economic opportunity. Internet age companies were mostly newly founded ones. The wins did not go to pre-existing companies, leveraging their preexisting size and power. Rather, tiny newcomers managed to compete and win against large established companies. The proverbial "guys in the basement" taking on billion $ companies. This wil seem democratic, to those with a certain worldview.

It's hard to say this has stopped, but it is certainly different. The new generation of internet companeis are the current oligopolies, even oligarchies. Cellular internet is reaching people without mains electricity, but often the internet consists of just FB, who have basically purchased an exclusive monopoly.

Last (and probably most important) is freedom of information, citizen journalisand other related aspects of democracy that communication technology advanced. If you want to criticise a regime, no one can stop you.

These democratizing features land squarely in the middle of the liberal worldview, and excite all sorts of grand expectations. Freedom of thought, speech, press, conscience, association.... The rights of man and the basis of a free society & liberal democracy, free market or otherwise.

I think liberals (including me) believed that a free infromation would be a blow to despotry. This, I think, has proved false. These freedoms (in practice, but not theory) don't seem to lead to anything in particular.

Disilussionment is ongoing. We have twitter mobs, clickbait, fake news, paid trolls and info bubbles... Facebook controls the media people get, and the data that makes this useful. Centralisation is worse than before. Exclusive access to data is becoming a force to be reckoned with, and all the power naturally flows to the largest companies.

Despots needed to adapt, but those who do end up even more powerful than before. Take Russia, China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia as examples. It's true that they can't control information anymore. If you want to read an article painting the leader in bad light, you can. But, they can influence what most people hear. They can censor sites, and 90% of people won't bother finding workarounds. They can troll opposition views, and make any issue seem like an open debate.

The game is no longer about locking out competing politics. It's about winning public opinion in an uneven debate, with tools at your disposal that the opposition does not have. Instead of a "tank vs knife" dynamic with their opposition, they've had to settle on a "gun vs knife" dynamic. It keeps them sharp, but doesn't really threaten regime stability.

My conclusion is the old banal cliche. Regardless of the starting point, technology is what people do with it. A technology is neither despotic or democratic.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#195

I’m a PhD student focusing on large scale video analysis. It’s an unfortunate fact that a lot of the applied research in this space is motivated by surveillance, particularly in systems, eg what’s come out of Microsoft’s efforts here [0]. A colleague who attended CVPR said most of the industry booths were either surveillance or self driving cars. I wish researchers would start to think more creatively about what we c…

Can't wait for algorithm homogenised movies!

I'd say you've seen a bunch of them, like everyone (sigh)

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#196

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#197

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

I’m pretty sure there have been protests about this in China. They might not have been heard very well, they were probably more likely to be in the form of online subversive statements, but please don’t think that all Chinese just accept this, many do not. A large scale protest is unlikely, but you’d be surprised what some rebellious CAFA students can do via art.

In the face of pain, there are no heroes.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#198
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people Of course, they don't have to live with all that so they don't actually care. Next time you could ask them whether or not they're willing to renounce their U.S. citizenship and become Chinese citizen again so they can be monitored 24/7 for their own "insider" "good", then you will start to get true answers from t…

It actually doesn't matter if they renounce their Chinese citizenship or not, the Chinese government has demonstrated that they consider anybody born in China to still be Chinese: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/22/swedish-bookse...

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. - 1984 (George Orwell)

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disheartening that so many bright people work on research that will undoubtedly be abused by authoritarian governments and make the world a worse place for everyone. Ask a thousand people what video analysis can be used for and I bet the vast majority will say surveillance, and most would probably struggle to think about something else. I wish researchers would start to ask themselves if what they're building ca…

History? You mean Google? Google will glorify it’s history in it’s middle schools just like America glorifies it’s history in it’s middle schools. Considering the researchers are hired according to their sheltered backgrounds, holding them as indivuals accountable is futile. If you care, vote accordingly, for politicians willing to refuse corporate donations. If you care a lot, study revolutionary history, learn from…

Google wasn't responsible for any of the major breakthroughs in AI. The current AI boom is driven by deep learning[1], due to Alex Krizhevsky [2][3], who was then a Ph.D. student @ University of Toronto. Subsequently, several significant breakthroughs have been in Universities & outside Google or FAANGs (Siri, DeepMind were all questions)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning [2] https://beamandrew.github.io/deeplearning/2017/02/23/deep_le... [3] https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.01164

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