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Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

nytimes.com

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Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#181

Post by thrantaway »

extralego wrote: post #172
thrantaway wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disheartening that so many bright people work on research that will undoubtedly be abused by authoritarian governments and make the world a worse place for everyone. Ask a thousand people what video analysis can be used for and I bet the vast majority will say surveillance, and most would probably struggle to think about something else. I wish researchers would start to ask themselves if what they're building ca…

History? You mean Google? Google will glorify it’s history in it’s middle schools just like America glorifies it’s history in it’s middle schools. Considering the researchers are hired according to their sheltered backgrounds, holding them as indivuals accountable is futile. If you care, vote accordingly, for politicians willing to refuse corporate donations. If you care a lot, study revolutionary history, learn from…

Google certainly played a major role, and it wasn't my intention to shelter companies/governments from blame. However, I certainly don't believe holding individuals accountable is futile. They need to consider if people can be suppressed, stripped of their rights, imprisoned, and murdered thanks to their research/code.

We should encourage developers to fight for privacy, and discourage them from engaging in research/writing code that can be used to commit evil acts.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that everyone should vote.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#182

Post by jpatokal »

rqs wrote: post #178
telltruth wrote: post #67

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

> Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people Of course, they don't have to live with all that so they don't actually care. Next time you could ask them whether or not they're willing to renounce their U.S. citizenship and become Chinese citizen again so they can be monitored 24/7 for their own "insider" "good", then you will start to get true answers from t…

It actually doesn't matter if they renounce their Chinese citizenship or not, the Chinese government has demonstrated that they consider anybody born in China to still be Chinese:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/22/swedish-bookse...

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#183

Post by taurine »

21 wrote: post #53

This Woman Threw Ink On A Photo Of China's President On A Livestream And Now She's Disappeared: https://www.buzzfeed.com/kassycho/chinese-woman-ink-xi-jinpi...

Reminds me of this Tweet by Donald Trump:

> Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag - if they do, there must be consequences - perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail! [1]

Luckily the US has safeguards in place and people that dare say "no, you can not do this" to the commander in chief.

[1] https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/80356799303675494...

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#184

Post by kalesho »

Razengan wrote: post #101
telltruth wrote: post #67

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

> I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. If they aren’t going to scale it back then I hope they go all the way with it. I hope they try to automate it and feed everything about everyone to a centralized AI. I hope they give it more and more control including the ability to direct military drones. I hope it then turns on them. Because the “smart stupid” people that implement well-intentioned malice like…

The funny thing is, their big data police system is called Skynet.

> Eyecool, he said, is also handing over two million facial images each day to a burgeoning big-data police system called Skynet.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#185

Post by superflyguy »

Fnoord wrote: post #180
superflyguy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the "art terrorist". Someone who has spent too much time sniffing paint cans and not enough time studying history.

Communication (and media) is important during a revolution (Examples: [1]). Or, more recently, look at the Arab spring where GSM and Bluetooth were important. The importance of radio and TV. Art is a form of communication, and with proper coverage the message is spread (ie. Bansky). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989

Bit of a stretch. You can argue that art is communication, but you can have communication without art and that's how I'd describe use of tech in the Arab Spring. I'm sure some people think Banksy is changing the world but we've had Brexit and Trump on his watch. Perhaps I'm being unduly harsh though, and we're just a few pretentious faux-warhol wall daubings from freedom.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#186

Post by poster123 »

According to the article, violent criminals, such as a "fugitive murder suspect", have been apprehended using facial recognition technology. It is not clearly dystopian to me to have a society where criminals are always caught -- it depends on whether the definition of "criminal" is good or if it just means someone who criticizes the government.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#187

Post by Fnoord »

superflyguy wrote: post #185
Fnoord wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communication (and media) is important during a revolution (Examples: [1]). Or, more recently, look at the Arab spring where GSM and Bluetooth were important. The importance of radio and TV. Art is a form of communication, and with proper coverage the message is spread (ie. Bansky). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989

Bit of a stretch. You can argue that art is communication, but you can have communication without art and that's how I'd describe use of tech in the Arab Spring. I'm sure some people think Banksy is changing the world but we've had Brexit and Trump on his watch. Perhaps I'm being unduly harsh though, and we're just a few pretentious faux-warhol wall daubings from freedom.

There is no stretch whatsoever. It is difficult to assess when and how much art contributes because it is an indirect motivation. If an opinion is censored, the ability to spread it via tags (or pieces) tells the viewer: do not despair, you are not alone in your viewpoint.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#188

Post by coldtea »

woodandsteel wrote: post #70
21 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been quite a few cases where "science" was used for "willful and deceitful spreading of lies". See for example how now we find out that the whole "fats are bad for you, carbs are good" scientific "fact" was manufactured by the sugar industry. This has infested the highest level of the scientific establishment (the american dietary recomandations), so you can't say that it was only the uninformed who were d…

But the lie was overcome by the efforts of countless dietary researchers employed at major institutions, so it was not at all a conspiracy of all the scientists. That is quite the contrary of what the people who have declared war on science are claiming.

>But the lie was overcome by the efforts of countless dietary researchers employed at major institutions, so it was not at all a conspiracy of all the scientists.

It's never "a conspiracy of all the scientists". It doesn't take one either. You just need to spread enough of your own brand of "scientific results" to be able to sell to the public. It doesn't even have to be the most prestigious research -- you can pay to have the press releases appear in all kinds of magazines as "fact".

That's what the food industry has been done for ages with tons of research on the benefits of this or that ingredient, or promoting this or that kind of diet (depending on the manufacturer). It helps that those doing it are not just some regular food company making $100 million per year (and which doesn't have much clout), but huge conglomerates like Coca Cola, Nestle and co, that control a large part of the processed food market.

>That is quite the contrary of what the people who have declared war on science are claiming.

When people revolt against something, it's important to distinguish some general sentiment and its context, from what some of them might be literally saying.

A large mass movement can never articulate itself well -- they move in platitudes, often opt for the easiest slogans, and often have more people attached who are not the most representative, just the most vocal (and extreme).

Rosa Parks, for example, might have gone as "I should be able to sit in front of the bus", but the gesture actually meant "I want to be treated as equal, period".

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#189

Post by coldtea »

toss1 wrote: post #62
21 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been quite a few cases where "science" was used for "willful and deceitful spreading of lies". See for example how now we find out that the whole "fats are bad for you, carbs are good" scientific "fact" was manufactured by the sugar industry. This has infested the highest level of the scientific establishment (the american dietary recomandations), so you can't say that it was only the uninformed who were d…

yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). The point of that nonsense is to sow distrust in all institutions, especially science. Since the susceptible people have no real idea about how science works, it's just swapping out one belief structure or another (even tho it's promoted as 'think for yourself', that doesn't work if…

>yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++).

It's not its literal expression -- but it could very well be the point.

Those people don't opt for "moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth" because of the inherent value in those propositions.

There's a sentimental reason behind that attachment, and it has more to do with a distrust in science and "all institutions" that stems from the damage they've seen them do, and the lies those can say that affect their daily life.

A subsequent attachment to e.g. "moon hoax" is an extreme way to express that. Like a kid who rebels against their parents and becomes e.g. a neo-nazi, or takes heroin, but their real problem is that their dad beats mom, or mom is a control freak, or whatever.

In other words, these people opt for things like the "moon hoax conspiracy" in the same way that a society under some big fear opts for movies that represent this fear metaphorically (e.g. the Godzilla movies in post-Hiroshima Japan, or the zombie movies in the US https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/... ).

But one has to see beyond the surface to actually understand these people (and of course some are just nuts).

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#190

Post by coldtea »

woodandsteel wrote: post #72
coldtea wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. In which case, not only it's not the real origin of some upcoming dark age, but the last voice of freedom before it.

>Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. No, like in the case of global climate change, the war on science is to enable the abuses of technology, not eliminate it. And that is true for many other cases. In other cases like evolution and the age of the universe, the motivation is religious, not the abuses…

>I am rather puzzled that you seem to be unaware of the various motivations involved.

I'm rather puzzled that you seem to stop at surface level motivations.

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