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Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

nytimes.com

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Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#161

Post by b6 »

chronic821 wrote: post #123
ineednoprocrast wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely post, but I feel it necessary to chime in here. I studied computational linguistics/natural language processing in grad school, out of an interest in accessibility issues (I had RSI) and related applications, and had naively neglected to look very hard about how I'd be likely use it in a career. Other people in my cohort went to work for the CIA. I couldn't move to the bay area for... reasons, (this was pre-…

> I feel morally obligated to use what I know to improve the state of the world. This has, unfortunately, led to a lot of unemployment and serious depression. And as you would suspect, I'm a PhD grad working in the Bay area on mas surveillance AI. Half a million dollars a year. I honestly don't know how to invest the money anymore. Index funds are boring at this point.

It doesn't matter how you invest. You can't protect yourself from karma with money.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#162

Post by musage »

obelix_ wrote: post #107
telltruth wrote: post #67

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

You have to examine your own assumptions too - 1. You assume stopping "revolution" is the goal. It is not. All you have to do is look at what outcomes "revolutions" in an info saturated/low attention span/consumption culture based society have produced in the last 20 years. 2. In 2013 the Washington post did an estimate on how much was being spent on the surveillance society in the US. Everyone reacted in disbelief.…

> You assume stopping "revolution" is the goal. It is not. All you have to do is look at what outcomes "revolutions" in an info saturated/low attention span/consumption culture based society have produced in the last 20 years.

And from that follows that the Chinese leadership wouldn't mind a revolution (that they didn't concoct themselves to tighten their grip, that is)? That doesn't follow at all.

> China is overvaluing control

You're overestimating your own attention span. Either they "value control" (what a disgusting euphemism) or they wouldn't mind a revolution.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#163

Post by extralego »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #157
telltruth wrote: post #67

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

I’m pretty sure there have been protests about this in China. They might not have been heard very well, they were probably more likely to be in the form of online subversive statements, but please don’t think that all Chinese just accept this, many do not. A large scale protest is unlikely, but you’d be surprised what some rebellious CAFA students can do via art.

Artivism is a fallacy of romance and a mark of decadence. I sympathize and appreciate the sentiment but we must let it die. Aesthetics compliment power but never redirect it. Let’s not fool ourselves.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#165

Post by antris »

walrus01 wrote: post #19
nimrod0 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a "bad" US credit score you can't get an apartment, a job, a post-paid mobile plan, or any number of things nowadays that ask for your SSN. That's why identity theft can trash a person's life. Same with ad profiles built around your activities and movements. You think that's not being sold around commercially and the intelligence community hasn't obtained a copy? The scaffolding is all there.

Oh, it's absolutely there, and your life is definitely crippled with a bad credit score in the US. But that's strictly financial . You can have an amazing FICO score and spend 24 hours a day shitposting bernie sanders memes on message boards, and trolling the hell of of every staff member of every trump appointee (within legal limits of not threatening anybody). Try the equivalent in China. It's a social credit score…

> But that's strictly financial.

Being homeless and jobless is a strictly financial problem?

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#167

Post by coldtea »

hawkice wrote: post #116
coldtea wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the NYT article about the US' dystopian dreams? Well, you don't shit where you live, or where those that pay you live.

I guess I don't understand. Are you saying The New York Times would refuse to publish news or editorials criticizing an element of American culture or governance? Perhaps I am confused, but it seems like that's almost all they ever report.

>Perhaps I am confused, but it seems like that's almost all they ever report.

Only within the narrow confines of what the "national interests" (and the interests of the elites who own them), allow.

In other words, only when there are competing fractions with different viewpoints within those.

Which is hardly all the cases when something should be criticised.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#168

Post by superflyguy »

extralego wrote: post #163
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure there have been protests about this in China. They might not have been heard very well, they were probably more likely to be in the form of online subversive statements, but please don’t think that all Chinese just accept this, many do not. A large scale protest is unlikely, but you’d be surprised what some rebellious CAFA students can do via art.

Artivism is a fallacy of romance and a mark of decadence. I sympathize and appreciate the sentiment but we must let it die. Aesthetics compliment power but never redirect it. Let’s not fool ourselves.

Ah yes, the "art terrorist". Someone who has spent too much time sniffing paint cans and not enough time studying history.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#169

Post by coldtea »

jacquesm wrote: post #45
coldtea wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. In which case, not only it's not the real origin of some upcoming dark age, but the last voice of freedom before it.

> Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. No, it definitely isn't. It's the willful and deceitful spreading of lies and portraying of scientists as bogeyman rather than the bringers of bad news. It's the purposeful act of dumbing down citizens and putting lies instead of facts in their heads to use 15 ye…

>It's the willful and deceitful spreading of lies and portraying of scientists as bogeyman rather than the bringers of bad news.

Well, science is a noble aspiration and a great methodology.

A scientist, on the other hand, and "scientific results" in actual practice can be anything, from great, to non-reproducible crap (most papers), to trite BS (lots of papers), to lies and distortions to sell some product, corporate interests, or ideology (a heck of a lot of them).

Just because someone is called a scientist doesn't mean they do science.

Increasingly they work more as "promotional" and/or "support" departments of corporate and government interests.

And the public might be too ignorant (lack of knowledge and terminology) to articulate this properly, but is not so stupid (lack of IQ and/or experience) to be able to tell something fishy is going on.

Not to mention that usually mere technology is conflated with science, and just because we can technically produce e.g. thalidomide, it's assumed to be good as well (because it's a "scientific result"), and it's proponents bad (luddites). Used thalidomide so it's a clear cut example -- one can find many others.

>The biggest abusers of tech tend to be those in power, closely followed by corporations, but the second is happy as long as they make bank, the first as long as they can use it to cement their position in power.

Agree. And their biggest enablers to abuse tech, and their biggest apologists, are scientists, or increasingly, technologists.

After all, they're their employees. It's not like in the 19th century in the UK for example, were scientists could be lords and independently wealthy, and could call a spade a spade. Or like up until the 70s, when it was easier to be a vocal critic and still find a job elsewhere. With the tight grip on tenured positions, and the decline of the scientific job as a status, they are more dependent than ever.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#170

Post by b6 »

sharpercoder wrote: post #46

I understand that most western countries have societal controls grown over the past centuries. The Chinese did not, and are catching up quickly by implementing similar controls as we have. But now, it's the digital age, and as such they are using any available technology to implement these societal controls. From this perspective, it's completely normal what the Chinese do. Seen from western eyes it does look a bit s…

> I understand that most western countries have societal controls grown over the past centuries. The Chinese did not, and are catching up quickly by implementing similar controls as we have.

A sibling comments asks you what you mean here. I'd like to know, too. This kind of sentiment is depressingly familiar -- it seems to me that a lot of Chinese people like to vacillate between "China is the best", "China is just doing what other countries are doing", and "China is a developing country" as the situation requires, seemingly without being aware they are doing it at all.

> China is now the dominant world player

This is true, but not in the way I think you would like it to be. If strength is measured only in concrete production or something, then yes, China is by far the strongest. But that's not where real strength comes from. It comes from good ideas. China is not just behind on good ideas, it's actually shackled. Good ideas are dangerous to the CCP, so they are actively suppressed. The natural result is the epidemic of IP stealing that China engages in. You can cheat on your homework and get good grades on tests for a while, but life is not like a test in school. You cannot cheat on the test that nature gives you. To succeed in the test of life, you need innovation and critical thinking skills, and the CCP will not allow there to be an environment in China conducive to the development of critical thinking skills. Nor will it allow the kind of environment where people listen to their own inner sense of right and wrong. People in China are not generally trying to be righteous, they're just trying to become one of the VIPs with back door access to the power. People in China don't trust each other, and rightfully so. Think about the massive secret costs this is imposing on the entire country.

The CCP is a bit like cancer, and a bit like a parasite. It will continue to drain the vitality from China as long as it is in power. Obviously, it is trying to shut the door forever on the possibility that it will ever not be in power. And it is stoking nationalistic notions of superiority as needed to get the support of those it is vampiring.

So it is deeply sad to me to see someone celebrating the spread of the CCP cancer as if it is a happy development. The rest of the world is watching in horror as you guys happily help build your own prison. China really is #1 at something now, leading the way as a technological/surveillance dystopia, serving as a warning to the rest of the world why we have to prevent what is happening in China from happening anywhere else.

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