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Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

nytimes.com

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Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#151

Post by dang »

bachbach wrote: post #66
wcrichton wrote: post #14

I’m a PhD student focusing on large scale video analysis. It’s an unfortunate fact that a lot of the applied research in this space is motivated by surveillance, particularly in systems, eg what’s come out of Microsoft’s efforts here [0]. A colleague who attended CVPR said most of the industry booths were either surveillance or self driving cars. I wish researchers would start to think more creatively about what we c…

> The least we can do is try to use this technology for social good. For example, a USC/Google team used computer vision tools to identify gender bias in modern cinema That sounds entirely worthless. A social good involves helping somebody who needs aid. This proposal merely fills a perceived need by political dogmatics. This is exactly a sociopolitical memory leak.

Please don't take HN threads into political flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#152

Post by thrantaway »

wcrichton wrote: post #14

I’m a PhD student focusing on large scale video analysis. It’s an unfortunate fact that a lot of the applied research in this space is motivated by surveillance, particularly in systems, eg what’s come out of Microsoft’s efforts here [0]. A colleague who attended CVPR said most of the industry booths were either surveillance or self driving cars. I wish researchers would start to think more creatively about what we c…

It's disheartening that so many bright people work on research that will undoubtedly be abused by authoritarian governments and make the world a worse place for everyone. Ask a thousand people what video analysis can be used for and I bet the vast majority will say surveillance, and most would probably struggle to think about something else.

I wish researchers would start to ask themselves if what they're building can be abused by authoritarian governments, and if so, switch focus to a field of research that will make the world a better, rather than a worse, place to live in.

History will not look kindly on researchers who built the tools that enabled Xi the Pooh to achieve a dystopian surveillance state.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#153

Post by dang »

ilikehurdles wrote: post #131
dang wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because you weren't engaging in conversation, just posting ammunition. Your other comments in the thread suggest that you have an agenda about this. That's not a good basis for posting HN comments, regardless of the agenda or whether you're right or wrong; and when the topic is divisive it basically always leads to flamewars.

Is your idea of local perspective a watered down and government-controlled local news source spouting government viewpoints? Really, dang, I’m curious what you would consider a valid local perspective that is something other than support of the regime. There were tons of local perspectives in links of the other comment. And why is one viewpoint unworthy of HN but not the other?

Of course not. mc32 expressed an interest in how Chinese people see this issue ("non-Western", clear in context). That's an interesting question. But walrus01 responded with Western media reports on highly politicized subjects. That wasn't a serious response, just the usual political/national battle, which we're trying to avoid here.

HN threads are supposed to be for thoughtful conversation, in which people respond meaningfully to each other's questions and try to figure out the truth together. If you think in terms of intellectual curiosity (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), that isn't hard to understand.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#154

Post by mark_edward »

dang wrote: post #151
bachbach wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The least we can do is try to use this technology for social good. For example, a USC/Google team used computer vision tools to identify gender bias in modern cinema That sounds entirely worthless. A social good involves helping somebody who needs aid. This proposal merely fills a perceived need by political dogmatics. This is exactly a sociopolitical memory leak.

Please don't take HN threads into political flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

You allow posts about mass surveillance technology yet it's supposed to remain apolitical.

Disgusting

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#155

Post by dang »

mark_edward wrote: post #154
dang wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads into political flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

You allow posts about mass surveillance technology yet it's supposed to remain apolitical. Disgusting

From recent posts I gather that you don't want to use HN as intended, so I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#156

Post by kwhitefoot »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #15
nimrod0 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. In the US, subway stations and buses, elevators, convenience stores etc. have video cameras. Electronic tolling gantries have been used to track vehicles. Red light cameras are everywhere. I haven't seen a backlash. It's always interesting to see a reference to a different society as a pedagogical tool to learn about something you might not like. The key step though is to see your own life from an outside pe…

" elevators, convenience stores etc. Red light cameras are everywhere. I haven't seen a backlash." Because those cameras are not used to track you, nor are you identified in those videos, nor is that data generally shared with anyone, and in most cases not the government. In some areas, i.e. highways in LA, they do track license plates, and there is backlash and at least concern. A 'timed security camera' is barely r…

> Because those cameras are not used to track you, nor are you identified in those videos, nor is that data generally shared with anyone, and in most cases not the government.

Not yet.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#157

Post by seanmcdirmid »

telltruth wrote: post #67

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

I’m pretty sure there have been protests about this in China. They might not have been heard very well, they were probably more likely to be in the form of online subversive statements, but please don’t think that all Chinese just accept this, many do not.

A large scale protest is unlikely, but you’d be surprised what some rebellious CAFA students can do via art.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#158

Post by exolymph »

virtuabhi wrote: post #134
21 wrote: post #53

This Woman Threw Ink On A Photo Of China's President On A Livestream And Now She's Disappeared: https://www.buzzfeed.com/kassycho/chinese-woman-ink-xi-jinpi...

Hope she is alright now.

Oh yeah, I'm sure she's totally fine.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#159

Post by bachbach »

dang wrote: post #151
bachbach wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The least we can do is try to use this technology for social good. For example, a USC/Google team used computer vision tools to identify gender bias in modern cinema That sounds entirely worthless. A social good involves helping somebody who needs aid. This proposal merely fills a perceived need by political dogmatics. This is exactly a sociopolitical memory leak.

Please don't take HN threads into political flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I will not, but I also didn't begin by introducing the tinder - he did.

"USC/Google team used computer vision tools to identify gender bias in modern cinema" is waving a flag for a specific political belief that is not shared by most Westerners. Outside of the valley this is fringe stuff.

The appropriate equivalent to this would be a right winger expressing concern at the 'appropriateness' of race mixing on camera (the hidden belief) - perhaps pointing out bias in the form of the black woman/white man duo being rare (potential legitimate issue).

Suppose I applauded the use of computer vision to spot the frequency of black man/white woman pairs - I know you wouldn't consider that a neutral political perspective. tldr; Political neutrality is impossible when your attention is being dragged along by the current prevailing wisdom of the forum.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#160

Post by musage »

Razengan wrote: post #121
b_b wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems a bit harsh to wish the suffering that this will cause on literally billions of people to prove a point, when we can intervene now instead.

Intervene how? The governments and corporations of the "Free World" will only pander to China, for “access to their market”, and individuals can't do much against a regime that would happily mow its own citizens down with tanks and then erase all memory of the event within a single generation. [0] Maybe independent developers could put a notice against Chinese authoritarianism in their apps and services when they're…

In your case, not egging it on would be a start even.

There is no bottom to this abyss. There is no limit to the number of victims, the upper ceiling for that is 100%, or a gazillion people. There is no limit to their innocence, and no limit to the cruelty inflicted on them. There is no time limit, either. You say this because for you as an individual, it's easier rationalizing that non-resistance will somehow lead to a good outcome. But if everybody did that, it will become a trillion times worse for everybody, "forever", than ANYTHING you could do today. Setting yourself on fire in protest would achieve more, and hurt you less, than the outcome of global, perfect totalitarianism -- which is an ever shrinking noose of sociopathy, not stability.

Until you understand this you will not understand that your personal feelings are of secondary concern when basically the world is at stake. Not the planetoid, human society, the space where human personalities would have developed.

"A boot stamping on a human face, forever." Don't whitewash that in your own mind.. it involves blood, it involves children screaming in terror for what is done to their parents, it involves sobbing elderly crushed underfoot, "and so on". If you were face to face with just ONE such an act, could you really just shrug it off? If you could not help, it would still sit with you, you know that. If you were lucky, you would seek for ways to turn it into a constructive force.

What we are lacking is a perspective for what is at stake, and for the vast opportunities we have. As long as we use our minds more to make excuses than develop principles and stand behind them, we have no say in what is possible. Start with thoughts, then words. Don't be another voice calling people to fall into a sleep that would end in a potentially never ending, ever worsening nightmare.

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