Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras • Hacker News Board

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#141

Post by jerkstate » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 4:59 AM UTC

make3 wrote: post #91

walrus01 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish researchers would start to think more creatively about what we can do with large video datasets and tools like face recognition. Some very smart people in China did exactly that, and arrived at a conclusion on what the local market for surveillance tech was lacking. Based on what the government will fund, they came up with an answer we seem to dislike.

I think he means, aside from dystopian population surveillance

yeah, like a thing that would remind me what peoples names are at parties.

probably not as much money in that though.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#142

Post by forapurpose » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 5:01 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #127

emptybits wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the NYT article about the US' dystopian dreams? The NYT writes plenty of articles about US surveillance gone-too-far. Even a naive query like this: https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=surveillance turns up plenty of exposure on the issue. At least in the USA, citizens can openly criticize and publish their government's corruption and failings and concerns about the surveillance state and abuses of power. Am…

> China doesn't have (and never really had?) these features It used to, sort of. An immortal Party ruled over the state. Now it's devolved into a dictatorship, with the predictable pitfalls thereof.

> Now it's devolved into a dictatorship

It's never been otherwise. It's returned to a hard dictatorship from a soft dictatorship, and appears to be shifting from authoritarian to totalitarian. I'm not sure if Mao's rule is properly termed 'totalitarian'.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#143

Post by mc32 » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 5:16 AM UTC

ilikehurdles wrote: post #131

dang wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because you weren't engaging in conversation, just posting ammunition. Your other comments in the thread suggest that you have an agenda about this. That's not a good basis for posting HN comments, regardless of the agenda or whether you're right or wrong; and when the topic is divisive it basically always leads to flamewars.

Is your idea of local perspective a watered down and government-controlled local news source spouting government viewpoints? Really, dang, I’m curious what you would consider a valid local perspective that is something other than support of the regime. There were tons of local perspectives in links of the other comment. And why is one viewpoint unworthy of HN but not the other?

Not speaking for dang, but for me local perspective means a Chinese perspective from Chinese people, be they actually living in Country or ex-pats living abroad consisting of regular folk [city and country] along with students and local experts. Chinese people are not "afraid" to speak their mind when they have something to say, so long as they trust you to not out them [when speaking on sensitive subjects].

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#144

Post by Animats » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 5:16 AM UTC

China has had broad surveillance for decades. but it was manual and village or employer based. Each worker had a dang'an, a paper-based personnel record which follows them from employer to employer, plus a similar record kept by local police.

As cities grew and employees become more mobile, keeping this current and useful started to break down. So the central authorities are modernizing their surveillance system.

Such control predates communism in China. Something like this was in place when China was mostly peasants, with local village officials keeping records. This goes back at least to the Qing Dynasty, around 1750. The concept that the government knows where everyone is and what they're doing goes way back in China.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#145

Post by e12e » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 5:23 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #27

tmalsburg2 wrote: post #2

The article says there are four times as many cameras in China than in the US. This means approximately the same number of cameras per citizen. Where is the NYT article about the US' dystopian dreams?

It’s not even close. A false equivalence. Assuming a camera represents a unit of surveillance, then that comparison might hold, but it’s what China actually does with that stuff that makes the difference. There is always this knee-jerk “What about the US?” every time there is an article like this. If you haven’t lived in China and actually lived within their system, it’s easy to take for granted the freedom Americans…

I agree with most of your points, but:

> If a teacher in the US shows a video of the Kent State protests or plays disparaging videos about Ronald Reagan, the FBI doesn’t show up.

(...) when I got to the airport, the FBI, the CIA, the TSA; they came and intercepted me. All these guys in black suits. And they took me in a back room and started questioning me about the Stokley Carmichael speech that I was listening to. They probably, you know, have some sort of bug, or some sort of tap or something... But, umm... they were very concerned with me listening to this Stokley Carmichael speech from 1967. You know? Forty years ago. So, words that he said forty... now, we have gangsta rappers - we have rappers who talk about shooting other people all the time; killing... but the FBI's not looking for them. They're looking at me because I'm listening to this speech from forty years ago. And it shows you the power of those words, is that they resonate even to now. The FBI is still scared of this man. He doesn't have nearly the same influence over our community as he did then, but yet, they still stopped me at the airport for listening to his speech.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1592527/quotes/qt2354325

That's not to say it's the same - it's just a reminder that there's danger that surveillance can curb free speech - which curbs involvement - which in turns undermine the processes for democratic change.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#146

Post by ineednoprocrast » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 5:31 AM UTC

chronic821 wrote: post #123

ineednoprocrast wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely post, but I feel it necessary to chime in here. I studied computational linguistics/natural language processing in grad school, out of an interest in accessibility issues (I had RSI) and related applications, and had naively neglected to look very hard about how I'd be likely use it in a career. Other people in my cohort went to work for the CIA. I couldn't move to the bay area for... reasons, (this was pre-…

> I feel morally obligated to use what I know to improve the state of the world. This has, unfortunately, led to a lot of unemployment and serious depression. And as you would suspect, I'm a PhD grad working in the Bay area on mas surveillance AI. Half a million dollars a year. I honestly don't know how to invest the money anymore. Index funds are boring at this point.

I'm a little confused by the beginning of your response, because you don't appear to be the person I replied to.

When you wrote this, what did you anticipate my reaction would be?

Why?

I must admit, I really don't know what it would be like to be working in the bay area on mass surveillance AI for half a million a year.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#147

Post by brobdingnagians » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 5:40 AM UTC

obelix_ wrote: post #107

telltruth wrote: post #67

I fully expect this to keep getting advanced further. There has been no protest whatsoever within China and even many people of Chinese origin living in US with US citizenship seem to think this is necessary and good for the people. I have been told that "outsiders" won't "understand" this. The bottom line is that if people are not rebelling against current measures of social credit, government only has incentive to…

You have to examine your own assumptions too - 1. You assume stopping "revolution" is the goal. It is not. All you have to do is look at what outcomes "revolutions" in an info saturated/low attention span/consumption culture based society have produced in the last 20 years. 2. In 2013 the Washington post did an estimate on how much was being spent on the surveillance society in the US. Everyone reacted in disbelief.…

Who watches the watchers? Government bureaucrats are human too, and why are they somehow superior to the rest of us in making decisions? If you have a bee-watcher, you must then have a bee-watcher-watcher, an so forth. If everyone makes their own decisions, we call that freedom, and it means we don't have some fallible bureaucrat deciding what is best for me (which I very much doubt they will do well).

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#148

Post by cf498 » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 5:55 AM UTC

hungerstrike wrote: post #54

Tenoke wrote: post #5

The technology isn't quite there, and Chinese law enforcement clearly exaggerates in order to maximize the current impact. However, we are very close to the point where everything could be tracked, and recorded in a usable way - including the exact location of most citizens at all times, discrepancies in utility bills, shopping, internet activity (except possibly for those few with impeccable OpSec, and even that for…

How hard is it to destroy things? If people wanted to they could start breaking shit and then there would be no cameras watching them. Can you manufacture devices faster than people can break them? I think some sort of mass uprising could still work.

Can you break a camera without being identified in a completely surveilled area?

This goes to a core why many believe a totalitarian surveillance system might not have a way back out. Once the first guy or girl breaks the first camera the cops will know immediately and they will end up in jail before they can say "revolt".

Former revolts and revolutions always needed the incremental creation of critical mass. Without the possibility of prior planing and coordination all that leaves you with is being a hopeless martyr who will be locked away in a heartbeat with the faint hope of at least motivating a few others to resist.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#149

Post by ggm » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 6:09 AM UTC

defen wrote: post #112

ggm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have attended meetings discussing IoT and at one, the observation was made many of the cameras are deployed by private individuals, not the state. Private individuals want to surveil their own surroundings. I can't explain why, I don't live in China. But I do notice many buildings in the cities I visit have thick strong window bars even up above the 5th floor. Maybe there is a strong concern about local petty crime…

> But I do notice many buildings in the cities I visit have thick strong window bars even up above the 5th floor. Thieves will rappel down from the roof, so no floor is really safe without the bars.

I lack the criminal mind. I've been wondering about this, in HK, Beijing, Jakarta, KL, Sau Paulo, Buenos Aires, unable to work out what he threat risk was that high.

Now I know: the intersection of thief, and rock-climber.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#150

Post by ggm » Mon, Jul 09, 2018, 6:11 AM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #34

ggm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have attended meetings discussing IoT and at one, the observation was made many of the cameras are deployed by private individuals, not the state. Private individuals want to surveil their own surroundings. I can't explain why, I don't live in China. But I do notice many buildings in the cities I visit have thick strong window bars even up above the 5th floor. Maybe there is a strong concern about local petty crime…

I'm not assuming that - there are undoubtedly a huge number of privately owned cameras in China, as there are just about anywhere else in the world that people can afford to put 802.3af/PoE cameras stuck somewhere on a wall, fed from one cat5e cable, that cost $65 to $120 a piece. But as for cameras in major public locations with pedestrian traffic, I would bet that a much higher percentage of cameras in China are ac…

Not being able to say in the US right now, I read that in the UK, private cameras are installed for profit and sell a feed to the police.

There are three levels of police in most jurisdictions worldwide: federal state and local. the US is no different, and putting devices on street poles typically demands compliance with planning law, and I suspect in any economy with cameras on light poles or sign posts by roads, its state actors.

The UK is either the most, or the second-most surveilled economy in the world. Not western world, worldwide. Cameras per head of population are increadibly high.

Your faith in 'old glory' is touching. I suspect, its misplaced.