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Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

utahpolicy.com

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Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#171

Post by andrewflnr »

jadedhacker wrote: post #24
propman wrote: post #21

Paper ballots, no machines and especially no machines connected to the internet...if we were able to get that crazy bug into Iranian nuclear reactors without direct transfer from Internet, then you can bet North Korea, Russia, Israel, and China will pour billions to do the same thing. Voting ID cards too, though I admit I don’t know enough about that. Even if it costs billions to get it done, confidence in fair and f…

The first is a good idea, but the second is not. Voter ID cards are historically used to make it harder to vote and thus compromise elections. In person fraud is very uncommon, and it would be very difficult for a foreign government to pull off a large scale interference without being detected. After all, we struggle to get people to show up to vote once already! The idea of mass ballot fraud seems difficult to count…

> Voter ID cards are historically used to

I'm so sick of this excuse. The correct response is "... so let's not do that this time, mkay?" Specifically, make them absolutely free-as-in-beer and only require minimal time and effort to obtain (benchmark: proof of address is too much effort). You do this explicitly on the basis that voting is a universal right and requiring money for it is abhorrent, as is any other obstacle not strictly required for ensuring uniqueness.

Now you can also get rid of the half-assed national ID system comprised by our driver's licenses, state IDs, etc. And the people who want to use voter IDs to disenfranchise people have to shut up because you've addressed their supposed point.

Get it over with, already.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#172

Post by TheCoelacanth »

squirrelicus wrote: post #94
rectang wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDs are not issued automatically in the US; they take money and effort to acquire. Therefore as implemented in the US, voter IDs are a poll tax. Unsurprisingly, this makes voter ID a political issue: those who benefit from poll taxes support them, and those whose voters are suppressed by poll taxes oppose them.

I think it would be reasonable to create a national ID card system and fund it through taxes. It could replace driver licenses and social security cards. I do not know why it would be unreasonable to require such a card for voting. It could also serve as a PKI system with the govt acting as a CA (i.e. manage issuance and revocation). There are non zero benefits. And this doesn't have to operate like a poll tax. I don…

If such a card existed, it would be reasonable to require it for voting, however, there is no such card, so that is irrelevant until such time as one is created and rolled out to the entire country.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#173

Post by iamnotlarry »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #168
iamnotlarry wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a small U.S. town. There are not 10K people living within 25 miles of my house. While few here would admit to being rich, people who don't live here might see them as pretty well off. There is probably something close to 1 car per capita. That includes infants. If you throw in motorcycles, four-wheelers, tractors, loaders, golf carts, boats, jet skis, snowmobiles, personal fork-lifts, etc. we have to go wel…

I grew up in a town smaller than that. How many adults do not have a driver's license, which is acceptable id for voting?

I have no way to count them. But I can give you one off the top of my head.

My dad.

Incidentally, he owns two cars.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#174

Post by squirrelicus »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #172
squirrelicus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be reasonable to create a national ID card system and fund it through taxes. It could replace driver licenses and social security cards. I do not know why it would be unreasonable to require such a card for voting. It could also serve as a PKI system with the govt acting as a CA (i.e. manage issuance and revocation). There are non zero benefits. And this doesn't have to operate like a poll tax. I don…

If such a card existed, it would be reasonable to require it for voting, however, there is no such card, so that is irrelevant until such time as one is created and rolled out to the entire country.

I agree. I think we should make it.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#175

Post by maxerickson »

oceanghost wrote: post #169
maxerickson wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But kill NAFTA. In the US there's really not any community of non-English speaking citizens, so whatever to your complaints about integration, the kids desperately want to integrate (and the parents usually agree). And of course the whole thing where foreigners are scary is as much a modern panic as anything. In periods of pretty open immigration, lots of states didn't require citizenship to vote: https://en.wikipedi…

> In the US there's really not any community of non-English speaking citizens Source? lol

What significant counterexample are you thinking of?

A few thousand people here or there is a laughable threat to whatever culture exists in USA.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#176

Post by downandout »

iamnotlarry wrote: post #159
downandout wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d love for you to explain how living life as an adult in the US without an ID is remotely close to possible for any reasonable length of time. Want a job? You need ID. Banks are obviosuly out, but so are prepaid reloadable cards. Live on cash only from an under-the-table job where you weren’t asked for ID? Fine, but where do you plan to live without ID? Even weekly motels require ID. The idea that a legal, eligible…

I have an ID. Last time I renewed it I specifically spurned the "Real ID" option. Which supposedly means I can't get on an airplane. I have since been on an airplane. But not one that required a loss of dignity. I did not provide a driver license to my employer. I have worked legitimately for them every day for many years. I did not provide a driver license to my ISP. I can't fathom why my bank would need to know if…

Which supposedly means I can't get on an airplane. I have since been on an airplane. But not one that required a loss of dignity.

You'll apparently "lose your dignity" in October [1].

I can't fathom why my bank would need to know if I am allowed to drive.

An ID and a driver's license are not necessarily the same thing.

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/tsa-changes-deadline-for-real...

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#177

Post by ppseafield »

mikejholly wrote: post #135
flyingcircus3 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've conflated your feelings with the government's propensity to provide protection for all Americans. Voting is a right, unlike driving an automobile, which is a privilege. Rights have no prerequisites to enjoy them, unlike privileges. We all agree that many people do have the means to acquire government IDs. Just like all goods and services, the amount of money required to purchase an ID might be a pittance to yo…

Let me rephrase: the majority of people in my society would _agree_ that requiring an ID card to vote is reasonable. That is true based on an observation of the status quo. Voting is also a right in Canada. In the US, being an imprisoned felon erases your right to vote. Hence, voting is not a God given grant as you claim. You're also making an ignorant generalization about my background. I was brought up by a single,…

> the majority of people in my society would _agree_ that requiring an ID card to vote is reasonable

On the surface it seems like a reasonable requirement, but it disenfranchises people for little to no return. In-person voter fraud is difficult to do in any meaningful amounts. Estimates show the amount is negligible compared to the kind of disenfranchisement voting restrictions cause.

Additionally there have been a lot of bullshit practices put up to block people from voting: literary test + grandfather clause, poll tax, corporate thugs watching you vote, white supremacists keeping black people out of polling stations, limiting the quantities of polling stations, resisting early voting, using horribly insecure (Windows XP SP1) voting machines, voter records getting purged. Voting is a right, and it's supposed to be the foundation of our democratic republic.

ID costs money, has to be renewed, and is harder to get than it used to be. (Thanks, DHS.) What if you're older, and the building that kept your birth certificate burned down? Or just lost it? This is not uncommon. Do you just not get to vote?

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#178

Post by squirrelicus »

lotu wrote: post #167
squirrelicus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be reasonable to create a national ID card system and fund it through taxes. It could replace driver licenses and social security cards. I do not know why it would be unreasonable to require such a card for voting. It could also serve as a PKI system with the govt acting as a CA (i.e. manage issuance and revocation). There are non zero benefits. And this doesn't have to operate like a poll tax. I don…

I federal id card is a political non-starter in the US because of a a bunch of reasons. First the federal government currently lacks infrastructure to issue IDs effectively. The states handle drivers licenses at DMV which handle a lot of stuff besides just issuing IDs, building separate federal systems would be a large undertaking. The REAL ID act which was an attempt to create a federal ID managed by the states was…

I'd like to understand why, but "infrastructure doesn't exist" isn't a reason to not create it. Maybe the argument is that Congress can't do it because people wouldn't reelect representatives that make it harder to pretend they're "off the grid", as if they already were, which they're not.

In any case, I'd like to hear arguments against it besides monetary cost, but so far all I've been exposed to is fringe right wingers whining about the gubment and lefties feeling like reminding us that Jim Crow et al was a thing and they totally promise that's not a red herring.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#179

Post by downandout »

tzakrajs wrote: post #152
downandout wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d love for you to explain how living life as an adult in the US without an ID is remotely close to possible for any reasonable length of time. Want a job? You need ID. Banks are obviosuly out, but so are prepaid reloadable cards. Live on cash only from an under-the-table job where you weren’t asked for ID? Fine, but where do you plan to live without ID? Even weekly motels require ID. The idea that a legal, eligible…

No, what is preposterous is that you cant imagine people with no employment, no bank account, nor vehicle to drive living in the US. Those people have a right to vote even if you aren't impressed with their quality of living.

...living in the US. Those people have a right to vote

Living in the US and having the right to vote are not the same thing. Illegal aliens, temporary and permanent residents, and other people of varying status live in the US but cannot legally vote, at least in federal elections.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#180

Post by fooker »

danso wrote: post #156
fooker wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would polls like : Do you want a bridge built here? Yes, No, Don't Care. be a cognitive overhead?

The California voting guide for June 2018 is 96 pages long: http://voterguide.sos.ca.gov/pdf/complete-vig.pdf The info associated with each ballot measure is considerably more extensive than you seem to realize.

That's because there are so few votes. Imagine having one single exam at the end of 4 years of education.
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