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California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

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Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#541
post #526
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Made sense until the last paragraph and everything turned upside down. "Fully inform" is that not simply what we in real life call "the small print"? Taking advantage of people is never ok in my book. If you think you're allowed just because you are a little smarter than us I would question your moral and welcome any basic consumer protection.

> "Fully inform" is that not simply what we in real life call "the small print"? It depends. We can easily get into the sophistry of "what is understanding", "what's the nature of knowledge" and "how many gains of sand makes it a heap". But usually the most common, though definitely imperfect, test would be whether a random reasonable commoner would be able to understand it. I.e., if somebody is told "we have a contr…

To put it maybe too bluntly: but I do not see the difference between "randomly reasonable commoner" and a "paternalistic approach".

And more importantly I think you put in too much trust in the good will of people. To me it is important to factor in the "human nature" which not always conform to higher ideals. And that does put me firmly in the paternalistic camp.

Not to say I want to remove all liberty. But with the gym examples they clearly show they need to be regulated. They've shown no intent to listen to reasonable random commoners.

I live a place with better consumer protection. I have never in my life had to do a charge back. And have the same bank account. Reasonable consumer protection makes life better - not worse. With the added benefit of making the market more fair for the reasonable players and not cater for the buccaneers.

Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#542
post #534
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, though they must be a bank or have an agreement with a bank. Random person can't just do it by just having the numbers. And a bank can get in trouble if it allows shady clients access to ACH. > bank account authentication mechanism is to withdraw some money from your account, and then ask you how much they took In my experience, it is usually the reverse - they put a small sum there, and then withdraw it back af…

Nope no requirement that they be a bank. Plenty of places allow you to pay online by “direct deposit”, which in every country other than the US involves them providing you with their bank a/c details. In the US you give them /your/ bank account, and /they/ initiate the withdrawal. Anyone with your account details can pay for something from your account, including to a service they can withdraw from. Better yet fraud…

> Plenty of places allow you to pay online by “direct deposit”

Looks like you've missed the "or have an agreement with a bank".

> if someone uses your bank a/c# you are responsible for recovering the money.

I do not think this is true. Of course credit card fraud liability policy only covers the credit card, but there are rules about bank transfers. My reading of https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/4A/part_2 is that the customer is liable for the payment only if it is authorized and passes "commercially reasonable" security procedure. If somebody just gets you bank account number, it's clearly not an authorized payment (unless they make it look authorized, i.e. by stealing your identity or passwords, etc.) and you will not be liable for it.

Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, it's unlawful to make false representations in the course of doing business. There doesn't necessarily need to be a specific law that says "you can't pretend to be deaf", because if you misrepresent such facts, you are very likely exposing a lot of legal attack surface. IANAL.

> Generally speaking, it's unlawful to make false representations in the course of doing business You basically described the whole field of advertising, if you make misrepresenting facts illegals, there's not a lot of businesses that would not be fined.

An unlikely best-case representation is not the same as a false one.

Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#544

Thank god for that. I made the mistake of joining a Goodlife gym in Canada many moons ago... The place was disgusting. Always crowded. Mould growing in the bathrooms. Stunk very badly, etc... So I stopped going regularly... and one day I was in the area I decided to stop in and cancel my membership. "Oh sorry, you'll need to make an appointment with management in order to cancel." "OK, is a manager in right now?" "Ye…

Gyms are a whole other level of insanity for unwanted charges. Planet Fitness's entire business model is essentially counting on people to forget they entered their checking account number, and missing the bill. They wont even allow you to sign up with a credit card.

> They wont even allow you to sign up with a credit card.

This has not been true for years now. I have a Planet Fitness account happily billed to my credit card right now. I actually go 2 times a week, though, and the one time that I did have to cancel it, the process was painless and quick.

Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#546

This is a good law, but I'm genuinely curious...is this really such an issue? Personally, I can't remember the last time (maybe ever?) having this issue. Maybe I don't have a lot of subscriptions. Maybe I don't cancel often. Maybe I come off on the phone as not budging an inch. The last time I recall having even the slightest bit of an issue was cancelling my AOL service ~18 years ago and even that wasn't as bad as e…

I once hornily punched my credit card number into a camsite to get "200 free coins". After using them all (I gave them all to one cam girl after feeling bad for her), I tried canceling the subscription. The around the cancel was literally commented out in the html. I forgot about it, got charged 2 weeks later, and issued a chargeback. Never got charged again.

Watch out your credit score for a few months now. Some online merchants in CNP environment have power to put a negative remark on your credit if your credit card processor (Visa/MC/etc) deems they have higher trustworth score than you do. I seen it happening to people. Your score will not go down,; however there will be derogatory flag that could make it harder for you to get new credit card, etc. I seen those on peoples files for up to 18 months, and then gone.

Edit: here is the phrase that may show up on your credit report: "Account information disputed by consumer, meets FCRA requirements"

Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#547
post #91
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually have a speech impairment (a stutter) and you’d think people would be willing to accommodate. I can speak just fine when I have complete agency over the words I choose to say, but it’s the absolute worst when I have to read out some long specific access code or account number and say it 100% correct. Stutter even once and they think I meant 2 P’s when I just wanted to say a single P. And then it becomes thi…

When I lived in the US I would follow the phone menu for 30s or so, but at some point I would always a get annoyed enough and just hit random keys until the robot says: I don't understand let me connect you... Often hitting # repeatedly did the trick. But lot always.

> When I lived in the US I would follow the phone menu for 30s or so, but at some point I would always a get annoyed enough and just hit random keys until the robot says: I don't understand let me connect you...

I don't remember which ones, but I've found several companies whose automated systems hang up on you after giving you a certain number of 'tries' to enter a menu option.

Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people grow out of the need to follow moral rules as much as you imply. Sooner or later, there comes a time when it is overwhelmingly in a person's interest to lie (or some other transgression). If they are purely rational, they will do it. If they think deeply about morality, they will rationalize why it is right to do what is in their interest. The point of inculcating honesty and other virtues is so…

Lying isn't bad. Hurting people is bad. There are many totally honest ways of hurting someone.

> Lying isn't bad. Hurting people is bad. There are many totally honest ways of hurting someone.

While I agree with your first two sentences and think that they are well said, the third doesn't demonstrate the first; it demonstrates only that "hurting people can be done without lying", not "lying can be done without hurting people."

Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#549
post #8

I recently had to cancel an ongoing subscription I had with Equifax, which requires you to call by phone. Unbelievably frustrating. I had to dial the service at least 10 times. Each time, the automated responder would make me go through a very slow menu selection process, only to randomly fail to acknowledge either my correct SSN or zipcode or street number, which I entered using a keypad. As a consumer, I've had to…

We really need some kind of consumer protection against IVR gauntlets.

> We really need some kind of consumer protection against IVR gauntlets.

My brain tried really hard to read "IVR gauntlets" as a description of wearables, like AR goggles, before I realised what you meant.

Re: California law requires businesses to let you cancel your subscription online

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And in emails they put in "We're experiencing a higher-than-usual volume of support requests and we encourage you to look at the FAQ instead". To be fair, you wouldn't believe the number of people that will send a request to support before looking at the FAQ when the item (and resolution) is in the FAQ.

I would :) I also do CS for my company. I honestly believe almost nobody reads FAQs, and the presence of an item in an FAQ is a symptom of a UX failure somewhere down the line.

And the inability to find it in the FAQ is itself a failure. It seems like almost no one is even trying, no wonder we tend toward monopolies.
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