Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

epj.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 83 posts

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#51

Post by eksemplar »

hapnin wrote: post #31

Of course only small communities have a majority of btc. Too many people - geeks included - spent too many years believing the fud being broadcast about Bitcoin while others were collecting btc. I've seen the blistering scorn from some here on HN over the years. When I first ran across Bitcoin in 2010, I thought it was a scam but was intrigued by the tech. After studying it for about a month, I realised it wasn't a s…

What are you basing this on, your gut feeling? If I look at where I can actually use bitcoins, or crypto currencies in general, the list is dwindling. A few years ago I could buy coffee with crypto, I can’t today. A few years ago I could buy certificates (if I could also pass them) and other Microsoft products with crypto, I can’t today. A few years ago I could rent an vacation home with crypto, I can’t today. Hell these days I can’t even conver crypto into actual money in my country.

Maybe it’s not like that in the US, but the only useful thing I can spend crypto on as a Scandinavian is paying for my domains.

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#52

Post by eksemplar »

darawk wrote: post #33
garmaine wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the answer is still yes, just a different composition of oligarchs.

That exact fact makes it not an oligarchy.

An oligarchy isn’t defined by a set of stable oligarchs. There can be a shift in power in a oligarchy and there typically will be because the oligarchs aren’t friends.

If you look to ancient Athens, it wasn’t uncommon for an oligarch to be exiled. If you look to modern Russia, well, there is a reason a lot of former Russian oligarchs chose to live in London and not a Russian prison.

An oligarchy is almost always a turbulent place, most of them making the BTC powershifts look calm.

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#53

Post by jib »

21 wrote: post #10

When bitcoin appeared, everybody was saying that "only retarded people would `invest` in such an obvious scam. you would be better to blow your money in Vegas, at least you'll get a free drink". Now the same people say "it's not fair that some got to buy it at such cheap valuations".

No we are still saying the same. Lots of people made money on pyramid schemes, that doesn’t make them a good investment. The longer a pyramid scheme runs, the dumber it is to invest in it.

If you truthfully believe bitcoin will develop into a stable alternative to state run currencies, great, I wish you good luck.

I don’t. To me it is like religion - they can’t all be right and they are mutually exclusive. I don’t trust myself to be able to pick the winner among all the losers.

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#54

Post by jib »

deepnotderp wrote: post #38

HN 2015: Bitcoin is bullshit, don't waste your money on it. HN 2018: people who got in early in bitcoin have more of it, thus it's bad.

Those are not contradictions, you realise that right?

MLM schemes are bullshit, don’t waste your money.

If you buy into Herbalife now you are truly not making a good decision, because there is already a huge pyramid of people above you.

MLM schemes are a bad idea at the start because they are unlikely to take off, and they are a bad idea when they are running because they are unlikely to be profitable for anyone at the lower levels due to the unsustainable structure of profit distribution.

It’s just another hot potato game.

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#55

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

craigc wrote: post #27

I am well aware that most people on Hacker News hate Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies so a lot of these types of studies and articles that are negative end up making their way to the top. It is strange that this study was from 2017-2018 and yet they only considered data from 2009-2013. Would be nice if there was an explanation as to why. One thing I wanted to point out is this seems to be presented to shine a negative li…

> I am well aware that most people on Hacker News hate Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies

It's not hatred of Bitcoin to think that it's more worthwhile as a white paper than as an investment vehicle.

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#56

Post by hapnin »

eksemplar wrote: post #51
hapnin wrote: post #31

Of course only small communities have a majority of btc. Too many people - geeks included - spent too many years believing the fud being broadcast about Bitcoin while others were collecting btc. I've seen the blistering scorn from some here on HN over the years. When I first ran across Bitcoin in 2010, I thought it was a scam but was intrigued by the tech. After studying it for about a month, I realised it wasn't a s…

What are you basing this on, your gut feeling? If I look at where I can actually use bitcoins, or crypto currencies in general, the list is dwindling. A few years ago I could buy coffee with crypto, I can’t today. A few years ago I could buy certificates (if I could also pass them) and other Microsoft products with crypto, I can’t today. A few years ago I could rent an vacation home with crypto, I can’t today. Hell t…

I'm basing it on eight years of experience in Bitcoin.

"Bitcoin for coffee" and the like is a waste of the tech, imo. Buying network services such as you described is a better use as intercountry payments with debit cards isn't always feasible.

Bitcoin's use is better as a transnational currency when traditional payment channels are cumbersome. To be frank, Bitcoin still has some work to do in the payment channel dept but Lightning Network is getting there.

In the US, there are more than a few places where you can trade out btc for gold/silver and sell the metal for fiat. It's preferable to selling on an exchange, imo.

If you can't spend now, hang onto your btc until you can. Saving is always a good idea.

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#57

Post by craigc »

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #55
craigc wrote: post #27

I am well aware that most people on Hacker News hate Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies so a lot of these types of studies and articles that are negative end up making their way to the top. It is strange that this study was from 2017-2018 and yet they only considered data from 2009-2013. Would be nice if there was an explanation as to why. One thing I wanted to point out is this seems to be presented to shine a negative li…

> I am well aware that most people on Hacker News hate Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies It's not hatred of Bitcoin to think that it's more worthwhile as a white paper than as an investment vehicle.

True. Could you elaborate on why you believe that?

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#58

Post by rspeer »

craigc wrote: post #45
rboyd wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, it was just idiots that were marketing "let me show you how to get rich with bitcoin" courses, etc. I always wonder how much HN hates crypto just because it's important to have a good story for sleeping on crypto.

I do not really understand it. Posts about other technologies on here lead to civilized, intelligent conversations, but for whatever reason, any post about crypto or Bitcoin just leads to attacks and arguments. The reason I find it more inexplicable is that when you think about just the idea of peer to peer programmable finances/money without requiring any trusted intermediary that is a huge idea. In my opinion, it i…

Why is it revolutionary? Who really cares that much about not requiring a trusted intermediary, besides anarchists? Our civilized world is built on trust.

It was a Bitcoin advocate who said "nothing is cheaper than proof of work", given the precondition that you don't trust anyone. Curiously, they saw that as an argument in favor of proof of work. Bitcoin detractors see that as an argument in favor of trusting someone, because proof of work is insanely expensive and an ecological disaster.

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#59

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

craigc wrote: post #57
0xcde4c3db wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am well aware that most people on Hacker News hate Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies It's not hatred of Bitcoin to think that it's more worthwhile as a white paper than as an investment vehicle.

True. Could you elaborate on why you believe that?

I don't have some kind of incisive analysis. I just think the tech is interesting while the loudest cheerleaders come off as some mixture of scammy and cult-like. There are other things that I feel roughly the same way about; it seems to be a standard hazard of being on the cutting edge of R&D.

Re: Is the Bitcoin network an oligarchy?

#60

Post by craigc »

rspeer wrote: post #58
craigc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not really understand it. Posts about other technologies on here lead to civilized, intelligent conversations, but for whatever reason, any post about crypto or Bitcoin just leads to attacks and arguments. The reason I find it more inexplicable is that when you think about just the idea of peer to peer programmable finances/money without requiring any trusted intermediary that is a huge idea. In my opinion, it i…

Why is it revolutionary? Who really cares that much about not requiring a trusted intermediary, besides anarchists? Our civilized world is built on trust. It was a Bitcoin advocate who said "nothing is cheaper than proof of work", given the precondition that you don't trust anyone. Curiously, they saw that as an argument in favor of proof of work. Bitcoin detractors see that as an argument in favor of trusting someon…

Based on your reply, I am fairly convinced you have already made up your mind so it is somewhat pointless to spend my time trying to convince you otherwise, but I will say a couple things.

For one, while our civilized world is built on trust and you may trust Banks, Governments, Tech companies etc, the majority of millennials do not trust Banks or Governments. Numbers outside the US are even lower. For more information about this I would recommend watching this presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGberGnxiJk

I believe money is something that you should be able to have full control and ownership of. Governments and banks can lock or seize accounts/funds for any reason. Banks can limit deposit/withdrawal/transfer amounts. I don’t think that right now this is a big problem, but in the future, imagine banks getting hacked and funds stolen or even a bank run. There are a lot of scenarios where I can see our financial system failing. If inflation rates increase then it will drive more people towards things like Gold and Bitcoin. Look at what has been going on in Venezuela.

As far as the electricity use, please consider taking a look at this article:

https://medium.com/@dergigi/bitcoins-energy-consumption-6dd7...

It also links to a couple of other sources that show how gold mining, paper currency/minting, and electricity used from the banking system all use orders of magnitude more electricity than Bitcoin mining does. If ultimately Bitcoin can replace banks or even gold, then it will have done the world a favor. Most miners also use renewable energy such as hydro and solar which would otherwise just go to waste.

Andreas Antonopoulos makes the argument that it will actually help the world come up with cheaper and more efficient power by allowing people to subsidize the costs by mining Bitcoin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0OUIW89II

Post reply on HN