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Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

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Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#221

Post by hanniabu »

nostromo wrote: post #28

There's a lot of misunderstanding of agriculture in this thread. 1) No, land is not expensive. In agricultural areas, land is quite cheap. Organizing shelves of crops vertically solves for a problem that isn't actually a problem. 2) The sun is free and electricity isn't cheap. Putting plants indoors and then buying electricity to create light is going to be expensive compared to using the free sun. (The absurdity of…

I've worked in this field. I'll list a few points for it.

1) Pesticide free. There's a lot of chemicals that go into growing crops and they contaminate our bodies, water, and soil.

2) Sun is free, but sun exposure and temperature aren't consistent year round.

3) Shipping may be cheap, but the time of travel from the farm to the table is long. Growing locally increases the amount of time a plant can be on the shelf or fridge before going bad. Food waste is a big problem from a waste and cost perspective.

4) You've touched on the water aspect. It's an issue that this can solve.

5) Going back to farming and food waste, much of the crop grown is scrapped due to insect or animal damage, rot, or other reasons.

6) Soil type and exhaustion. Only certain type of plants can be grown in certain soils and environments and only for so long before the soil is exhausted of nutrients.

7) In hydroponics you can control the taste of the product by the light spectrum and nutrients. Some customers ask for specific tastes, which is something farms can't provide.

8) Hydroponics is just the first step. The next step is integration of microbials and aquaculture with aquaponics.

Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#222

Post by contingencies »

Why Vertical Farming Won't Save the Planet[0] is a lecture by the preeminent authority in the field, Bruce Bugbee, Utah State University Department of Plants, Soils and Climate, who has studied plant growth in controlled environments for most of his career and has consulted on all NASA missions with these goals. In particular see 13m26s[1] and 37m17s[2].

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISAKc9gpGjw

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISAKc9gpGjw&feature=youtu.be...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISAKc9gpGjw&feature=youtu.be...

Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#223

Post by KaiserPro »

In the UK land is reasonably expensive, but its cheaper than hiring and fitting out buildings in dense urban areas.

This is before we start costing up Electricity, fitout, soil import, water and pest control.

1) because for what ever reason they chosen to grown things in a _completely black room_ that means that you now have a significant energy bill for no real reason.

2) you have to import soil, soil is heavy, a pain to handle, and in this setup has a limited half live.

3) Labour, there is not obvious mechanisation going on here. (sure each box might be planted by a machine, but who puts it in place?)

4) water, again, the roof stops any source of free water.

5) pests, you are in a closed room monoculture, a pest like aphids if its lettuce, will run rampant, and will not attract predators. (also a problem for greenhouses)

In conclusion, this is expensive, highly carbon intensive, poorly mechanised, and largely pointless.

Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#224

Post by jsilence »

hvidgaard wrote: post #157
jsilence wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. is a common misconception/myth. even if you manage to keep the bugs out, which is really hard and expensive, you still have to deal with fungii. good luck with trying to filter out those. 2. LEDs are not more efficient than double ended sodium light lamps. max efficiency seems to be around 50%. So the other half goes to heat waste which has to be managed. climate control and especially temperature control is an is…

LEDs are simpler to cool, and at this scale it might be possible to use the heat for community heating.

Yes, agreed.

But also: Frontal heat radiation from HPS is working against condensation on plant tissue, helping to achieve good phytosanitary conditions.

Everything has its pros and cons.

Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#225

Post by [deleted] »

nradov wrote: post #160
rorykoehler wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you grow things indoors close to where they will be consumed you can control the environment reducing risk of drought, flooding, pest, pollution, wildfires, storm damage, blight etc etc. You also reduce the supply chain complexities around collection, transport and storage (inert gas storage etc). There are many other considerations apart from energy and when energy becomes cheap enough the game will turn in favou…

None of those issues are actually serious problems for agriculture in most areas most of the time. And energy will never be cheap enough in our lifetimes to change the calculation significantly.

[deleted]

Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#226

Post by techbio »

audunw wrote: post #203
mikro2nd wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "breakthrough tech" I'm NOT seeing: There's all the excitement over electric cars and electrical trucks, and I, for one, can't wait to get an electrically powered car I don't have to drive. But the thing I'm not seeing is electrically powered farm machinery. I think people underestimate just how hard that problem is. These machines, when they're working at peak times of the year (planting time, harvest) are requi…

Is this really that important though? I haven't numbers that indicate that farming machinery is such a big share of the oil consumption. My thoughts on these things is, if we can cut 90% of gasoline/diesel use with BEVs and PHEVs, then the last 10% could feasibly be fueld by renewable hydrocarbons. The development after that is up to the markets.. probably pure BEV will be preferred over time as batteries get better…

Farm machinery is not a huge part of agricultural energy use, and agriculture is not a huge contributor overall consumption, but energy's share in food production costs are high.

Petroleum use by industry sector: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.php?page=us_energy...

How energy is used in agriculture (Sweden): http://www.serina-ahlgren.com/p/research_26.html

How agriculture energy use contributes to the atmosphere: https://www.globalagriculture.org/report-topics/climate-and-...

(I am not an expert in this field.)

Edit: an adjective form

Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#228

Post by contravariant »

hanniabu wrote: post #221
nostromo wrote: post #28

There's a lot of misunderstanding of agriculture in this thread. 1) No, land is not expensive. In agricultural areas, land is quite cheap. Organizing shelves of crops vertically solves for a problem that isn't actually a problem. 2) The sun is free and electricity isn't cheap. Putting plants indoors and then buying electricity to create light is going to be expensive compared to using the free sun. (The absurdity of…

I've worked in this field. I'll list a few points for it. 1) Pesticide free. There's a lot of chemicals that go into growing crops and they contaminate our bodies, water, and soil. 2) Sun is free, but sun exposure and temperature aren't consistent year round. 3) Shipping may be cheap, but the time of travel from the farm to the table is long. Growing locally increases the amount of time a plant can be on the shelf or…

>7) In hydroponics you can control the taste of the product by the light spectrum and nutrients. Some customers ask for specific tastes, which is something farms can't provide.

I think you're selling farmers short there, I reckon quite a few of them could affect the taste of their produce, but can't because the market just buys from them in bulk with no regard for taste.

Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#229

Post by sitkack »

wffurr wrote: post #188
mikro2nd wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "breakthrough tech" I'm NOT seeing: There's all the excitement over electric cars and electrical trucks, and I, for one, can't wait to get an electrically powered car I don't have to drive. But the thing I'm not seeing is electrically powered farm machinery. I think people underestimate just how hard that problem is. These machines, when they're working at peak times of the year (planting time, harvest) are requi…

Transport uses a lot more fuel than farm equipment. Biodiesel from sawgrass on marginal land or waste product like corn husks etc would work out a lot simpler for powering the equipment, and can be made on site.

Hydrocarbons are so useful, eventually we will generate them using electricity.

Re: Is Vertical Farming Really the Future of Agriculture?

#230

Post by hanniabu »

contravariant wrote: post #228
hanniabu wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked in this field. I'll list a few points for it. 1) Pesticide free. There's a lot of chemicals that go into growing crops and they contaminate our bodies, water, and soil. 2) Sun is free, but sun exposure and temperature aren't consistent year round. 3) Shipping may be cheap, but the time of travel from the farm to the table is long. Growing locally increases the amount of time a plant can be on the shelf or…

>7) In hydroponics you can control the taste of the product by the light spectrum and nutrients. Some customers ask for specific tastes, which is something farms can't provide. I think you're selling farmers short there, I reckon quite a few of them could affect the taste of their produce, but can't because the market just buys from them in bulk with no regard for taste.

Yes and no. If they put the resources into it I'm sure they might be able to, but the flavor change comes from the light spectrum and nutrients so that'd be very difficult for them to control out in the open elements.
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