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Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

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301–310 of 348 posts

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#301
post #10

I'd owned this book for many years and had a similar experience to OP. But one day someone gave me `I am a Strange Loop`, which I started reading and enjoyed way more. After getting in a little bit Hofstadter makes some apologies for GEB saying it was the sum of work of a very young person. I think he was 24? I think it's pretty incredible considering his age. The things that lead him to thinking critically about con…

This. 100 times, this. GEB is an alright book, but nobody I know has actually managed to finish it. I Am A Strange Loop discusses the exact same thing, but does so with the experience of years of writing in metaphor, and more importantly, entirely in metaphor . All of the metaphors are well-crafted in that they are both a pleasure to imagine, can be recalled rather easily, and accurately map to what the author is try…

"[...]but nobody I know has actually managed to finish it."

I read the book entirely from first to last page, including bibliography, five times in five years. I was at the age of appr. 19-24 and I did not read many other books in that time. Everytime I read it again, it felt like a new book. I keep casually reading random parts of it until today.

I like Getty's review, although I do not share it at all. I learned many years ago, from a very wise friend, that when I struggle - for example with certain habits of my partner - that the root of my struggling is most likely not within the other, but myself. It points to some personal deficit. This friend taught me to explore myself, before I demand any change from the other. Why is it bothering me, what would I have to change in myself to get over it?

Applying this rule, in Getty's place, I would ask myself: "how comes, that so many people are appealed by this book in a way that I am not? What makes those readers, that share my criticism and those that don't, different?". This sort of introspection is very difficult and sometimes impossible. But in the case of Getty's cognition of GEB I might give some clues:

The parts of the book that receive most criticism in Getty's review are those parts, that I would consider the entertaining sections. For example: never did I perceive the dialogs in the book as didactic. I always perceived the dialogs as a rest period, an intake of breath. After long didactic and sometimes hard to swallow scientific passages, the dialogs in their playful and sometimes childish style would allow my brain to settle down, relax and get ready, very softly, for the next topic. Like you would shake your arms and legs between sportive excercises. The dialogs were always welcome intermissions for me, but I did not take them very seriously and I did not, at all, expect them to be an essential part of the didactic mission of the book.

The second major element of criticism in Getty's review are topics in the book that do not belong to the core themes (Gödels proof, logic, formal systems), but are brought in by the author in a way that does not properly embrace them for one and which he should't refer to in the first place, as he has no sufficient proficiency in those topics (according to Getty).

The expection of Getty obviously is, that GEB is supposed to be a very serious scholarly and didactic work, that must not deviate from its core topic. And I believe that is a mis-expectation: Getty expected a textbook, but got a novel. In MY perception GEB is the novel of Gödels proof and as such it can play and entertain and experiment to any degree that the author desires. Of course the author can make fun of Cage and completely miss Zen buddhism. For me, it was absolutely clear and obvious in every paragraph of the book, whether the author was didactic or playful or personal at any point. The mixture is the essence of the book that makes it so appealing to me. Textbooks are often too dry and hard to swallow, novels on scientific topics almost never go deep enough for me. GEB is an experimental format that hit the sweet point for me.

I want to make clear, that Getty is not "wrong" in his perception - it is his view and it is absolutely legit as such. I believe, though, it is a very big error to blame the author for not fulfilling one's own exepctations or try to convince others, to adapt their perception to one's own - there is no point in this. If Getty is really interested what makes him tick differently than others, he should introspect his indisposition with the "soft", playful, not so scientific, didactic aspects of the book. Why is he upset with those parts, where the author deviates from his views? Why is he unable to distinguish between the serious and the playful parts of the book? It might point him to some revealing aspects of his personality. There is no outcome in the sense of right or wrong!

I liked Getty's review - not for what it was proposedly written for: revealing to me weaknesses of the book I haven't discovered yet, or convincing me, that the book that I so much love, is actually not loveable - but for taking the courage and providing me with an insight in another type of brain and perception, and therefore another aspect of personhood, that I found very interesting and entertaining to learn about! This comes with absolutely no assessment from my side!

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#302
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it such a great thing to be born that we are doing something good for certain pigs by causing them to come into existence?

Ending all life would end all suffering, it's one of those dangerous philosophical ideas we prefer not to think about to often. The other extreme would be "every sperm is sacred" and I firmly believe that both should be avoided, but only for pigs.

That should be "but not only for pigs", obviously. Otherwise it would be a very interesting standpoint.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#303
post #232

I'd owned this book for many years and had a similar experience to OP. But one day someone gave me `I am a Strange Loop`, which I started reading and enjoyed way more. After getting in a little bit Hofstadter makes some apologies for GEB saying it was the sum of work of a very young person. I think he was 24? I think it's pretty incredible considering his age. The things that lead him to thinking critically about con…

Thanks for this info. I've attempted and put down geb about 3 times never getting too far. The stories were just childish to me.

I recently started reading the book and when I got to the first dialog part I got incredibly annoyed at how childish and unnatural the writing was.

I've yet to see why people think this book is so life changing.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#304
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Metamagical Themes It's Metamagica Themas, I think - an anagram of 'Mathematical Games'; the Martin Gardner's column in Scientific American which proceeded it. A lovely book.

I was briefly very confused until I figured out you were correcting Themes to Themas, and the dropped "l" was just an accident!

If you were only briefly confused, I congratulate you - it would have confused the heck out of me for much longer.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#305

“A fun illustration of something,” is pretty much as far as the book goes: it hints at grand unifying patterns, but the pattern it finds is just the abstract notion of self-reference, and then it keeps bringing it up, making a few unnecessary references, showing some pictures, and asking, “Isn’t that cool? Isn’t that weird?” The book is a puzzle. That's it. It's not the answer to life, the universe, and everything. I…

What's the solution?

It's a duck.

Seriously, "puzzle" in the sense that things are assembled and related to one another to create mental constructs that are pleasing to contemplate. The solution is to read the book and work the puzzle. Or it's a duck. The duck thing might work better for some of the more literal-minded, including the author of the critique.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#306

I'd owned this book for many years and had a similar experience to OP. But one day someone gave me `I am a Strange Loop`, which I started reading and enjoyed way more. After getting in a little bit Hofstadter makes some apologies for GEB saying it was the sum of work of a very young person. I think he was 24? I think it's pretty incredible considering his age. The things that lead him to thinking critically about con…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#308
post #29

I read and finished GEB first, and then read 'I am a Strange Loop'. I think the trick to reading GEB is to not take it so seriously. You can skim sections, you can skip parts, you don't have to understand everything, not everything has to make sense. I think the author here misses that when he complains such about the quality of the metaphors. They're not meant to help understand, as much as being there to give a vag…

You're hitting the nail on its flattest head here. The metaphors are deliberately broken. The ways in which they break are meant to show aspects of the system. Theorems have characteristics that aren't obvious to non-mathematicians. Hofstatder's goal was to convey some of these characteristics. A metaphor that says "if a theorem were a record and a mathematical system were a record player, here is what would happen t…

> The metaphors are deliberately broken

Also adding to this. A main point of the book is also that there is no logical system that can be complete, so someone trying to get the real big picture needs to be able to live outside logic comfortably as well.

A little bit like Zen thinking. You cannot make a clapping sound with one hand. But you have to accept that the question can exist in a space with zero answers.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#309
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet says Hofstadter was born in 1945 and GED was published in 1979. ~34 years later?

Sounds about right? What's your point? If you're trying to extrapolate his age from the publishing, someone below corrected me. He was 27 when he wrote it. A few years between writing and publishing the first edition lines up.

You said 24. That sounded very young. So I looked. No point beyond that. T’wasn’t an attack.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#310
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. 100 times, this. GEB is an alright book, but nobody I know has actually managed to finish it. I Am A Strange Loop discusses the exact same thing, but does so with the experience of years of writing in metaphor, and more importantly, entirely in metaphor . All of the metaphors are well-crafted in that they are both a pleasure to imagine, can be recalled rather easily, and accurately map to what the author is try…

"[...]but nobody I know has actually managed to finish it." I read the book entirely from first to last page, including bibliography, five times in five years. I was at the age of appr. 19-24 and I did not read many other books in that time. Everytime I read it again, it felt like a new book. I keep casually reading random parts of it until today. I like Getty's review, although I do not share it at all. I learned ma…

> the root of my struggling is most likely not within the other, but myself.

If only more people would think like that! (Not thinking of me here ... ;-) )

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