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Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

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Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#31

This was a measurement of the Nordtvedt parameter which characterizes the difference between a gravitational field and an accelerating reference frame. If there is no difference, as GR predicts, then the parameter is 0. This experiment tests the idea that gravity itself gravitates: gravity imbues very massive bodies with gravitational binding energy, and therefore more inertia. If your inertia is increased due to gra…

Does this mean that gravity is a real form of eneergy and not a simple deformation of space-time? IOW, if gravity were solely a deformation of space-time, then it would not add inertia? Or am I missing or misunderstanding something?

> Does this mean that gravity is a real form of eneergy and not a simple deformation of space-time?

No, it means that, heuristically, your local definition of "energy" and your local definition of "inertia" are both determined by the geometry of spacetime, i.e., by the same thing. That's why they have to match.

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#32
post #23

> Galileo famously (and likely apocryphally) demonstrated the principal by dropping lead balls of different weights off the Leaning Tower of Pisa and observing them hit the ground at the same time. This never made sense to me as something you'd need to test, once the question had been considered. Imagine 1000 cannonballs all connected to each other with threads. The result is a single object with 1000x the mass of a…

Well yes, especially if they fall vertically as the bottom cannonballs would pull the top ones and that would make them fall a lot faster.

Oh, I wasn't imagining them in a vertical string. Imagine a horizontal line of them, instead.

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#33
post #23

> Galileo famously (and likely apocryphally) demonstrated the principal by dropping lead balls of different weights off the Leaning Tower of Pisa and observing them hit the ground at the same time. This never made sense to me as something you'd need to test, once the question had been considered. Imagine 1000 cannonballs all connected to each other with threads. The result is a single object with 1000x the mass of a…

It may seem obvious to our modern eyes, but the notion that objects of different mass fall at the same rate is not at all obvious outside of the framework of physics that Galileo helped build. Without proper notions of force, gravity, mass, density, and the form of the laws of gravity, surely you realize that the answer to your hypothetical is not trivial. This was kind of the whole point of Principia.

I agree that it's well-established at this point. What I'm poking at is the question of "what is an object?" since that's also fundamental to the question of "do heavier objects fall faster?"

And it's a question that Newton could easily have asked, as far as I can tell.

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#34
post #23

> Galileo famously (and likely apocryphally) demonstrated the principal by dropping lead balls of different weights off the Leaning Tower of Pisa and observing them hit the ground at the same time. This never made sense to me as something you'd need to test, once the question had been considered. Imagine 1000 cannonballs all connected to each other with threads. The result is a single object with 1000x the mass of a…

We shouldn't write off the difficulty of the problem, just because it feels self-evident now. It's much easier to come up with a thought experiment once you have the answer. It's completely intuitive that "0" is a thing, I mean, you can just go "whats 2-2?" but it wasn't always the case. It's very hard to get into a frame of mind that includes only those items the contemporary discoverer would have known.

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#35
post #23

> Galileo famously (and likely apocryphally) demonstrated the principal by dropping lead balls of different weights off the Leaning Tower of Pisa and observing them hit the ground at the same time. This never made sense to me as something you'd need to test, once the question had been considered. Imagine 1000 cannonballs all connected to each other with threads. The result is a single object with 1000x the mass of a…

We shouldn't write off the difficulty of the problem, just because it feels self-evident now. It's much easier to come up with a thought experiment once you have the answer. It's completely intuitive that "0" is a thing, I mean, you can just go "whats 2-2?" but it wasn't always the case. It's very hard to get into a frame of mind that includes only those items the contemporary discoverer would have known.

I'm pretty sure that "0" as in "2-2" has been known since before we became the current species.

What was new and interesting was the use of "0" as a place holder to allow decimal number representation.

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#36
post #23

> Galileo famously (and likely apocryphally) demonstrated the principal by dropping lead balls of different weights off the Leaning Tower of Pisa and observing them hit the ground at the same time. This never made sense to me as something you'd need to test, once the question had been considered. Imagine 1000 cannonballs all connected to each other with threads. The result is a single object with 1000x the mass of a…

Well...imagine dropping a cannonball and a feather from the top of a tower. Obviously the cannonball is going to hit the ground first. You can then extrapolate this result to heavier objects and conclude that heavier objects fall faster. To explain the behaviour of a small cannonball and a large cannonball, both of which fall to the ground almost at the same time: you see, as the weight of an object increases, an object starts to behave more and more like an extremely heavy object. Thus the difference in dropping time for a heavy object and a heavier object gets immeasurably smaller as the objects increase in mass.

You can come up with all sorts of theories to explain phenomena. It's pretty hard to deduce the underlying rule from observation. But it's pretty easy to explain the phenomenon once you know the underlying rule.

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may seem obvious to our modern eyes, but the notion that objects of different mass fall at the same rate is not at all obvious outside of the framework of physics that Galileo helped build. Without proper notions of force, gravity, mass, density, and the form of the laws of gravity, surely you realize that the answer to your hypothetical is not trivial. This was kind of the whole point of Principia.

I agree that it's well-established at this point. What I'm poking at is the question of "what is an object?" since that's also fundamental to the question of "do heavier objects fall faster?" And it's a question that Newton could easily have asked, as far as I can tell.

But a more complete notion of "object" isn't what solved the problem.

Much of what constituted physics prior to the advances by Galileo and Newton (and many others) was essentially what was developed by Aristotle. Within the Aristotelian framework, which is what most educated people knew at the time, the concept of a distinct "object" is perfectly well defined. My point is that the natural philosophers at the time were quite capable of asking the question, "do heavier objects fall faster?" without being led astray by an incomplete notion of "object." In other words, the problem is conceptual, not semantic. The Aristotelian - again, the dominant framework back then - was instead led astray by the notion that all objects had a "natural" tendency to move towards the center of the Earth, and that this tendency was stronger for heavier objects. This worldview had a very long history, and a fair amount of evidence (such as it was) to back it up.

In this context, what matters is not the distinct objects but instead what properties influence their dynamics. It should be clear then why it was necessary to demonstrate the empirical truth. Many plausible theories had emerged, including the prevailing Aristotelian one, which accounted for the differences in, say, a lead weight falling versus a feather. Or, to get back to your original example, the Aristotelian would have answered, probably confidently, that yes, your chain of cannonballs would fall faster than separate ones. Your (correct Newtonian) intuition is that the mere act of chaining them together should not alter them, given that the threads would not exert forces in free fall, and therefore mere mass should not alter the falling rate. But, those notions depend entirely on the Newtonian framework. "Force" and "free fall" are the undefined concepts, not "object."

A key insight was needed, namely that you could separate out different causes in the motion; in this case, gravity and air resistance. (Though, of course, "cause" is itself a thorny concept...) Galileo's experiments demonstrated the point elegantly. More formally, this resulted in the development of the notions of inertial reference frames and linearity, which underpin much of classical physics.

I hope you don't think I'm belaboring the point. Newton's revolution was so total, so complete, that it changed everything about how we think about physical problems. Centuries of difficult philosophical and scientific work has been condensed down into a semester of freshman physics. To us, the problem is trivial, and it is easy to think that such experiments are so trivial as to be useless. To Galileo, this would not have been the case. A single thought experiment would not have been enough back then, even though it suffices now.

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A gravitational constant that is the same everywhere in the universe and is incompatible with a fifth force. The fallout of this ramification is that, gravity is some sort of ambient side effect of material presence, sort of like a shadow cast, more than an emission radiated. As a constant, that means that its invariance is significant, in the same way the speed of light is significant. There is some externality pegg…

I wouldn't say that general relativity suggests that gravity is an "ambient side effect" of material presence. It means precisely that the geometry of spacetime is determined by the matter-energy content within that spacetime; and that matter moves on geodesics dictated by spacetime. I suppose that I am forced to accept that whether you think gravity is more like a shadow of matter than an active participant in dynam…

[deleted]

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a semantic excursion. I'm bailing myself out of trouble by qualifying my statement as " probably " factual somehow, since it's not trivial to back such a concept. Semantic in the sense that the word " environment " is a loaded term. I'll offer this much: photons are particles. As particles, we know them to be part-time resident constituents of massive objects. That massive objects are representative of large…

> I'll offer this much: photons are particles. Photons are also waves in the EM field. > As particles, we know them to be part-time resident constituents of massive objects. I don't think you can say we know that without explain what that means. In no part of physics do we discuss part-time resident constituents. Your comments use a lot of terms that seem to be of your own creation. Unfortunately, these terms make it…

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/feynman-says-photons-a...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect

Re: Equivalence principle of general relativity holds even at gravitational extremes

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A gravitational constant that is the same everywhere in the universe and is incompatible with a fifth force. The fallout of this ramification is that, gravity is some sort of ambient side effect of material presence, sort of like a shadow cast, more than an emission radiated. As a constant, that means that its invariance is significant, in the same way the speed of light is significant. There is some externality pegg…

I wouldn't say that general relativity suggests that gravity is an "ambient side effect" of material presence. It means precisely that the geometry of spacetime is determined by the matter-energy content within that spacetime; and that matter moves on geodesics dictated by spacetime. I suppose that I am forced to accept that whether you think gravity is more like a shadow of matter than an active participant in dynam…

Sound waves are changes in the distribution of particles within a volume over time. The sound wave itself is a byproduct of the particles compressing closer together or stretching farther apart.

You might be in love with the idea of describing an equation that frames the gradient of distribution, and the nature of it's propagation through a medium, but the sound wave is the manner in which the gaseous molecular constituents of the air are set in motion relative to one another. They get closer, they move apart, the changes occur at different places in the medium, at different times, and do so at a certain velocity, in sequence as interactions are forced upon the medium.

Indeed, the reason sound waves travel at the speeds we observe, is because that's how fast the very molecules themselves, comprising the air, are moving at the temperature and pressure of the environment.

Meanwhile, what color is a beam with a wavelength of one nanometer? Would you characterize the color as "soft x-ray"?

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