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Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

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Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#131
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the properties that separate the 3 But that is exactly my point: what separates these three classes is the state of our current mathematical knowledge, and that obviously changes over time. > Which is pretty self-evident No, that is not at all self-evident. (If it were, someone would have proven it long before Turing, and he wouldn't be famous for it.) I don't know what you mean by a "bounding" problem, but we can…

it's self-evident _at this point in time_, given you could feed such a machine the collatz conjecture as an algorithm and we just don't know if any arbitrary input will halt. I'm not claiming it is self-evident in perpetuity. By bounding problem I guess I mean the mathematical equivalent of knowing it can halt. I'm not a mathematician as I previously stated so I don't know the terminology. I don't think the space I'm…

> it's self-evident _at this point in time_

No, it's not. Just because you and I don't know the answer is not proof that no one knows the answer. Someone may have discovered the answer in the last five minutes. (In fact, for any mathematical discovery there is always necessarily a period time when only one person knows the answer.)

> AFAIK not all problems relate directly to this space

And I am telling you that you are wrong about that. If you think that there is anything about computation that does not relate to math then you have a deep misunderstanding of either computation or math (possibly both).

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#132
post #91

This is a perfect opportunity to whip out one of my favorite quotes by Simone de Beauvoir: “Proust observed with astonishment that a great doctor or a great professor often shows himself, outside of his specialty, to be lacking in sensitivity, intelligence, and humanity. The reason for this is that having abdicated his freedom, he has nothing else left but his techniques. In domains where his techniques are not appli…

What does "fulfill himself as a flight" mean? Is the lesson that since professors are "less free" than everyone else, they criticize everyone else out of bitterness? Or is it that since they're so specialized and able to make a living only in their specialty, they don't need to practise good judgement outside their discipline? Is it that they live in an ivory tower and don't know the difference between theory and pra…

From what I got from the essay (it's been a while...), people who chose a "serious" path in life see no value in things that do not contribute to their goal.

E.g.: If you focus too much on engineering, you stop being able to see value in other aspect of life, such as philosophy.

De Beauvoir describes a couple of states of freedom of mind: 1. Children who believe in what they're told and don't think about their freedom 2. The serious man who chose a goal in life and do not think about their freedom (which the quote is about) 3. Nihilists who realize they're free but chose to do nothing 4. Adventurers who accept their freedom, but chose no precise goals 5. Passionate men who choose a goal according to their freedom and show no concerns for others 6. Genuine freedom (freedom + goal + concerns for others freedom)

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#133
This critique sounds like it comes from someone who has engaged with a wide range of topics enough to know that there is a lot of detail and nuance, but not enough for any of it to have coalesced into a simple understanding of it.

Cage's music is annoying and pretentious, and I largely think that because Cage was annoying and pretentious. He made a classic mistake in the art world of trying to tell people what his work was about and then getting pissed off when people either still didn't like it or chose to interpret it differently. That's a rookie mistake, and it's a fight artists never win. The smart ones keep their mouths shut and let the work speak for itself. The good ones make art that can be meaningful to a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. This was one of the great sticking points in the "War of the Romantics" between the New German School (Wagner and Liszt) on the side of program music against the Leipzig group (Schumann, Brahms) pushing absolute music. This battle between composers arguing about whether meaning should be explicit and imposed or if it should be intrinsic to the music and left to the listener was the context for Cage's work.

And his work is most charitably interpreted as social commentary, even though that's not what he wanted. The best thing you can say about it is that it asks the question, "What is music now?" But he thought he was the first person to ever ask this question and got really irritated when people pointed out that academics had been asking this question for a couple thousand years. So, a lot of very serious musicians thought he was pretty dumb, and he got pissed and said it's not dumb, you're dumb and you don't understand it, and if you were smart you would think it's all genius. It's really hard to defend that kind of a person, but it gets easier as time passes and you can stop thinking about the artist as a person and think of the art. But as a professional violinist for over 30 years and a music theorist, I don't object to the Hof's assessment. I could say similar things about Milton Babbit too, integrated serialism, and a lot of contemporary classical music. It would probably get a response from a certain kind of person who would say that I just don't get it or that I haven't given it proper study. Well, I have, and I think it's kind of dumb, it's been done before, and I no longer have the youthful zeal it takes to debate these things point-by-point.

Similarly, the criticism of the treatment of Zen also seems a little youthful. I grew up in a very Catholic family with parents who basically don't accept Vatican 2, and still practice Latin mass, and a large part of my home schooling was the intense study of Catholic history, philosophy, and theology. I took being Catholic extremely seriously for a very long time. But over the years I came to the conclusion that it was basically a bunch of cute fairy tale stories. Wonderful philosophy; terrible religion. And I'm not blind to the rich cultural heritage the Catholic church is responsible for. As a classical musician, I'm extremely aware of (and grateful for) how much the Church is responsible for Western Music as we know it today.

As I was drifting away from Catholicism, I got pretty deep into Buddhism. Ultimately I came to a similar conclusion. Great philosophy; silly religion.

Ultimately this article comes across almost as whiny and angsty and teenagery as John Cage does when he's defending his music: "You just don't understand me!!!"

No dude. Trust me. I understand it. It's just kind of stupid. You'll grow out of it eventually.

The book isn't perfect by any means. It is contrived. I don't think you could write a book like that today. But it was written in a very different time. A time when the knowledge divide between ivory tower academics and lay people was explicitly desired by the academics in a wide variety of fields, including--classical music. Babbit was famous for arguing that classical music should not be comprehensible to anyone who didn't have a PhD in Music Theory or Composition. That classical music deserved to be as respected and obtuse as advanced math and science, and that normal people didn't deserve to be able to understand great art. This book was a direct reaction to that academic pretense, and it presaged an era that has disseminated more knowledge across a wider range than any other explosion of knowledge since the printing press--and far outdone it.

Outside of that context, the book almost doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone write like this in a world where the top academic minds of every field lay out their innermost thoughts about the most challenging problems in their field on their blogs and talk to riff-raff in the comments and try to make things as understandable as possible? Well, no one writes like that any more. Not even Hofstadter writes like that any more. It is an artifact of its time . . . a lingering remnant of a world where knowledge had to be protecting by intellectual elites and a wide-ranging understanding of difficult concepts was seen as a threat to the academic establishment, and a reminder of how recently things worked that way.

When I was a kid violinist just getting into the completely new world of these concepts, it was illuminating and perhaps life-changing. As a grown up now with a different perspective, I can't see how it would have nearly as much of an impact on a younger person in today's context, and so in my world, its value has shifted from being the kind of book that initially illuminates a certain set of ideas and now reminds us of the world we came from way more recently than it feels like.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#134
post #125
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second time in this thread I see someone mention GEB in the same breath as TAOCP. I'm curious how they ended up occupying the same kind of mental space for you and apparently others. In the immortal words of Jules Winnfield, it "ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport". Not that you are under any obligation to read either and plenty of very good arguments can be…

In the same way as both chocolate ice cream and riding a rollercoaster make me happy, but are totally different. :-)

Right but do you feel you have to read, to pick a slightly less fraught example, the white algorithms book? Or Patterson and Hennessy? Like TAOCP, those work perfectly well skimmed or read in bits and parked on your bookshelf or in your bathroom.

GEB (or Moby Dick) are intended to be read in entirety.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#135

My first GEB, I traded for a complete works of Shakespeare. The second is sitting on a shelf alongside Fluid Analogies . Thinking about the GEB phenomenon today, boggles my mind. Sure it won a Pulitzer. But it was a best seller. That's how different the world was...non-fiction could be thick and highly technical and sell in volume to the general public...it didn't need to be a new journalistic summary or popular hist…

The Road to Reality by Roger Penrose was a bestseller just recently and I found that impossible to read even with a graduate degree in Physics.

This makes me feel better.

So far as I can tell, without a graduate degree in physics, that book is a giant bucket full of minced-up grad-level math, and Penrose is a pretty terrible guide to it.

On the up side it made me think I should put some time and effort into understanding the math and the ideas. That was nearly fifteen years ago now, and it's turned out to be a lot of fun as an occasional side hobby.

On the down side, he completely fails to make even relatively simple concepts either simple or accessible.

When you spend your life surrounded by some of the smartest grad students in the world, you're going to have a very unrealistic idea of what the average human can understand. Of of how to explain things to the average human in a way that makes understanding more likely.

Infuriating book - but I'm still glad he wrote it, and that I tried to read it.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#136
I've read it cover-to-cover at least three times, gifted a copy, and read it out loud to my son. I find it very playful and mind-expanding. I will admit that it is verbose and wandering, but I think that's part of the charm.

Out of curiosity I wandered through Amazon's 1-star reviews of this book to see what other people had to say. "Obtuse and impenetrable", I can certainly understand. It takes a certain bent to put the effort into reading it, and a certain level of interest to sustain that effort.

The bulk of the critiques, though, including the OP, seem to be that it's too shallow in some specific area. How could it possibly dive any deeper into a fraction of the topics covered without being split into a multi-volume set? Perhaps more economical prose would allow for deeper dives, but personally I think it serves as an excellent layperson's introduction to a huge number of topics in logic, philosophy, theology, biology, music, art, language, etc.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#137
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a vegan, but his consciousness cone is something I seem to bring up frequently with people. Usually by the end of the conversation I don't quite know why I'm not vegan aside from habit. Last time I brought it up I was eating sushi and talking about how I had decided to quit eating cephalopods because they might be smarter than humans... But then ate pork belly and just didn't really know what I stood for any…

Pigs are awesome and most of them (all except for wild boar) would not be around if not for us eating them. We should strive for avoiding unnecessary hardship and unsustainably high numbers, not for extermination through total disuse.

Pet pigs are a thing and have been for a while. Bit of a trend at the moment, actually.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#138
post #71

GEB is a book – like TAOCP – that makes me feel inadequate. I "know" I "should" work through it. I "know" I "should" enjoy it. But I never follow through. This review gives me hope that maybe I'm not just a ludicrous failure, but that there are different ways to go. Obviously, I do believe that, and I don't believe I'm a total failure, but still, I can't deny the nagging voice in the back of my head sometimes.

For those wondering: The Art Of Computer Programming by Donald Knuth

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#139
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's self-evident _at this point in time_, given you could feed such a machine the collatz conjecture as an algorithm and we just don't know if any arbitrary input will halt. I'm not claiming it is self-evident in perpetuity. By bounding problem I guess I mean the mathematical equivalent of knowing it can halt. I'm not a mathematician as I previously stated so I don't know the terminology. I don't think the space I'm…

> it's self-evident _at this point in time_ No, it's not. Just because you and I don't know the answer is not proof that no one knows the answer. Someone may have discovered the answer in the last five minutes. (In fact, for any mathematical discovery there is always necessarily a period time when only one person knows the answer.) > AFAIK not all problems relate directly to this space And I am telling you that you a…

alright, if you're going to resort to nitpicking and being wilfully insulting then I see there's not much point discussing this further with you.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#140
post #91

This is a perfect opportunity to whip out one of my favorite quotes by Simone de Beauvoir: “Proust observed with astonishment that a great doctor or a great professor often shows himself, outside of his specialty, to be lacking in sensitivity, intelligence, and humanity. The reason for this is that having abdicated his freedom, he has nothing else left but his techniques. In domains where his techniques are not appli…

What does "fulfill himself as a flight" mean? Is the lesson that since professors are "less free" than everyone else, they criticize everyone else out of bitterness? Or is it that since they're so specialized and able to make a living only in their specialty, they don't need to practise good judgement outside their discipline? Is it that they live in an ivory tower and don't know the difference between theory and pra…

What does "fulfills himself as a flight."?

We need to define flight here: "a brilliant, imaginative, or unrestrained exercise or display" [1]. So he fulfills himself as a a brilliant, imaginative, or unrestrained exercise or display. He toots his own horn, to promote oneself; to boast or brag; to tout oneself [2].

What does the quote mean?

They (some doctors and professors in this quote) have abdicated their freedom to their discipline or interest. They see all things through the single lens of their discipline, and all things outside of it as trite, "stupid", something not to think on at all or to think of only in how it relates to their specialty.

Take the result of Zuckerberg's "need" to monetizing Facebook. This has dire consequences on peoples security, and even peoples personal sanity. To Zuckerberg these things are dealt with in a way "lacking in sensitivity, intelligence, and humanity", all that matters is Facebook's bottom line. Further on in Simone de Beauvoir's Ethics of Ambiguity she quotes "The rest of the world is a faceless desert. Here again one sees how such a choice is immediately confirmed. If there is being only, for example, in the form of the Army, how could the military man wish for anything else than to multiply barracks and maneuvers?"

The overall idea being that people highly specialized and competent in one area make the logical fallacy of arguing from authority (themselves being the authority they are arguing from) and put forth the most mundane, lacking in nuance "ordinary values" in areas that they have little understanding, haven't researched and aren't really interested in.

1. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flight definition 5

2. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/toot_one%27s_own_horn

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