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Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

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121–130 of 348 posts

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#121
A metaphorical fugue on minds and machines in the spirit of Lewis Carroll

The dialogues are supposed to be whimsical and bizarre dream-like riffs on the topic at hand, a la Alice in Wonderland, not sharp teaching instruments.

I think Hofstadter did get the supposed point of Cage’s piece, or why would he have joked about whether people want to hear ambient noise or not?

The review gets good in the middle when it starts talking about Zen, and I agree with some of the conclusions towards the end. As another commenter pointed out, Hofstadter was young. In a way, the whole book is like an amateur piece of music or film or poetry, at times clumsy or campy but generally endearing. I understood this even as a kid.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#122
post #20

Does anyone have a better metaphor, or a link to someplace with a better explanation, of the Incompleteness Theorem?

The incompleteness theorem says that if your logical system is powerful enough to describe the natural numbers (Peano's axioms) then it is also powerful enough to write down self referential paradoxes, like "this theorem cannot be proved". This means that your system either is unsound (if you can prove the paradoxical sentence then you are simultaneously proving it to be true and false) or that it is incomplete (some sentences, including the paradoxical ones, cannot be proved). You can't be sound and complete at the same time in the presence of self-referential paradoxes.

The proof of Godel's theorem involves showing that you can encode theorems and their proofs using just integer arithmetic. For example, you can use tricks like encoding the string "ab" as 2ᵃ3ᵇ.

The incompleteness theorem is very closely related to Turing's undecidability theorem, which shows that by encoding programs as strings and passing them as inputs to other programs you can create paradoxical self-referential problem statements that no program can solve in finite time. It also reminds me of the lambda calculus, which is something that really shows how far you can go by starting out with a barebones system and encoding everything else on top of it. The lambda calculus starts with only anonmour functions and is able to encode numbers, arithmetic, data structures, iteration and everything else with just that. Godel's theorem uses similar tricks to show that if you start with just integer arithmetic you can also go all the way to "turing completeness".

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#123
post #9

I actually tend to agree with this review - the record-player analogy for incompleteness is particularly bad. But what you have here is a young man high on his intellectual gifts playing in beautiful abstract worlds, imperfectly, sometimes pointlessly. It's that intellectual playfulness that makes this book special, since books are usually either intellectual or playful but rarely both. Not to change the subject, but…

Can you give an example of fiction in which there is "something there"?

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#124
post #71

GEB is a book – like TAOCP – that makes me feel inadequate. I "know" I "should" work through it. I "know" I "should" enjoy it. But I never follow through. This review gives me hope that maybe I'm not just a ludicrous failure, but that there are different ways to go. Obviously, I do believe that, and I don't believe I'm a total failure, but still, I can't deny the nagging voice in the back of my head sometimes.

Second time in this thread I see someone mention GEB in the same breath as TAOCP. I'm curious how they ended up occupying the same kind of mental space for you and apparently others. In the immortal words of Jules Winnfield, it "ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport". Not that you are under any obligation to read either and plenty of very good arguments can be made you're better off not-reading at least one of them.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#125
post #124
post #71

GEB is a book – like TAOCP – that makes me feel inadequate. I "know" I "should" work through it. I "know" I "should" enjoy it. But I never follow through. This review gives me hope that maybe I'm not just a ludicrous failure, but that there are different ways to go. Obviously, I do believe that, and I don't believe I'm a total failure, but still, I can't deny the nagging voice in the back of my head sometimes.

Second time in this thread I see someone mention GEB in the same breath as TAOCP. I'm curious how they ended up occupying the same kind of mental space for you and apparently others. In the immortal words of Jules Winnfield, it "ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport". Not that you are under any obligation to read either and plenty of very good arguments can be…

In the same way as both chocolate ice cream and riding a rollercoaster make me happy, but are totally different. :-)

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#126
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. 100 times, this. GEB is an alright book, but nobody I know has actually managed to finish it. I Am A Strange Loop discusses the exact same thing, but does so with the experience of years of writing in metaphor, and more importantly, entirely in metaphor . All of the metaphors are well-crafted in that they are both a pleasure to imagine, can be recalled rather easily, and accurately map to what the author is try…

Sometimes when my girlfriend and I are laying in bed after a long day and just aren't quite ready to unplug and sleep, we take turns reading randomly selected sections from IAASL. There's a couple other books in the rotation, but it's a fun one. The mini theater of it becomes kind of self referential as we try to mess up how the other person feels about the reality being thrown at them. You really can't do that with…

I'm curious what the other books in the rotation are, if you don't mind sharing.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#127
The critiques here are spot on. The dialogues at the beginning of chapters were tedious and mostly unhelpful. The treatment of anything far afield from math was pretty shallow and cursory.

That said, I still loved this book in spite of its imperfections. I think it’s important to read it at the correct time in one’s life. When I first read it (at 19 or so), it showed me a lot of things I’d never thought about before. The topics it didn’t really do justice, it at least hinted at things that were new and interesting to me.

It doesn’t hold up quite so well to subsequent readings by my older self, but I’ll always have a soft spot for it.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#128
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing this course, very interesting. I wish HN had an easy way to save comments like Reddit, but this reply should do the trick :)

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=greggarious has your upvoted and favorited comments and stories. (Your favorites are public, your votes private.)

Thanks, that is useful but I upvote lots of stuff so a separate saved list can also be useful :)

For now, I have a bookmarks folder for stuff like this.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with directly, but if you're more familiar with comp-sci: based on my understanding of Curry-Howard correspondence, I would think it's the logic equivalent of the halting problem. I could be way off-base though, I'd appreciate a mathematician chiming in on whether my intuition is accurate here.

(Caveat: I'm a computer scientist, not a mathematician) The halting problem, and universal computation itself, came directly out of work on incompleteness. Incompleteness is about being unable to prove statements in a particular system; it leaves open the possibility that a more powerful system might be able to prove that statement (but that more powerful system will have its own incompleteness, and so on). Turing go…

Being like a law of physics makes the Church-Turing thesis really unique in computer science. Most of the things we work with are theorems but the Church-Turing thesis is distinctly non-provable. The evidence we have for it is that no one ever managed to observe a counterexample.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing this course, very interesting. I wish HN had an easy way to save comments like Reddit, but this reply should do the trick :)

Pinboard [0] solves it for me. I tag all the interesting stories with "hackernews", so I can easily go back and search. I noticed over the years that my use of Pinboard is very asymmetrical: I save several URLs every month, but retrieve at most a handful per year. But knowing that my memories are safely stored gives me peace of mind (and, just to be safe, I make a backup every year or so). [0] https://pinboard.in

>I noticed over the years that my use of Pinboard is very asymmetrical: I save several URLs every month, but retrieve at most a handful per year

It's better to have a URL and not need, than to need a URL and not have it :)

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