U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#51

Post by sol_remmy » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #26

sol_remmy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the Western European governments have _death panels_ to decide who deserves medical care and who deserves to die. And, in Western Europe, you must wait over a month for your non-urgent surgery, and much longer to be admitted into the ER. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-... . And you might die while waiting for your medical care: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bacchus-barua-/wait-times-c…

> And the Western European governments have _death panels_ to decide who deserves medical care and who deserves to die. In the US, we just call them "insurance companies". > And, in Western Europe, you must wait over a month for your non-urgent surgery Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US? https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-rel... > In a survey of 15 large U.S. metropolitan ar…

> Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US?

Whatever you say on this does not line up with reality.

The UK, a nation of 60 million, has 120,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-patients-waiti...

That would be equivilant to over 640,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery in a country with 320 million people.

The wait times do not compare. They are 10x, 20x worse in Europe.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#52

Post by protonimitate » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

INTPenis wrote: post #12

I'm glad this is being addressed but I don't feel qualified to add anything of substance to it. As many other techies I frequent message boards on reddit and other sites. A majority of users are from the US and many posts are written from a US-centric point of view. What I've observed on those message boards regarding workers rights and health has made me deeply concerned about US workers. And that's only in the tech…

I think it all comes down to how Americans see and value money versus how the rest of the developed world values it.

American culture puts 100% emphasis on how much money you make, and how you make it. More than health, or stability, or a well rounded life, American's are taught that money is the cure-all.

And sure, when you are in the top 1/4 of income earners, the U.S. has quite a bit to offer. But what good is all that money if your job can literally disappear over night? Or you get sick and can no longer work? Or any other unexpected tragic circumstance.

Somehow, we as American's have been brainwashed to believe that we are all just 'down-on-our-luck millionaires'. The opportunity exists, but it is certainly not a fair playing field - and offering assistance to those who experience bad luck or tragedy will not take away from someones ability to make what they wish, despite what we are being sold.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#53

Post by jellicle » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:30 PM UTC

yvrev wrote: post #10

Reactionary_ wrote: post #2

The US is one of the best places in the world to be a business owner, that's why its economy is so much more dynamic than European economies. In order to create such an environment worker protections cannot be as robust as in Europe. This biased article of course ignores that fact. Many workers are much better off in the US than in Europe as well. They get to keep a greater portion of their income, their income goes…

>that's why its economy is so much more dynamic than European economies What do you mean with more dynamic?

"Dynamic" is a word intended to invoke the idea that the USA is young, fast-moving, growing, while Europe is old, slow, near-death.

It doesn't have any meaning other than to invoke this common US belief. It's part of the American exceptionalism story.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#54

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:30 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #29

nerdponx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for middle-class and upper-middle class workers. But there has always been an underclass of people who barely make enough to survive, lack the market power to negotiate for better wages, lack the ability to acquire new skills in order to get different jobs, and/or are stuck with their current employers for lack of other opportunities. This population is also susceptible to overtime abuse and wage theft.…

> I am sure that much of that take-home pay is offset by higher medical costs and the need for more retirement savings This is not true. Those same workers get most or all of their insurance costs covered by the company. Same goes for retirement with 401k plans, etc. > Not to mention the fact that the American work week is longer and vacation days are rarer. This is true.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#55

Post by maze-le » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

gota wrote: post #18

Well, virtually nobody browsing HN can say they share the pains of the workers of the US that 'suffer when compared with the rest of the world'. Sure, there are many low-income residents, high inequality, high turnover, low unemployment with low upward job mobility, etc. All those things are true for the 'disadvantaged', and engineers, technologists, computer scientists etc. are _not_ part of the population that make…

>> Well, virtually nobody browsing HN can say they share the pains of the workers of the US that 'suffer when compared with the rest of the world'.

Thats a huge generalization. Not everyone reading HN is a top earning software engineer. Some people are just genuineley inerested in HN-topics but earn their wage with something else entireley. And there are lousy paid IT jobs as well. And there are software developers, that don't live in the US or Western Europe and could be in the same situation. Moreover:

>> All those things are true for the 'disadvantaged', and engineers, technologists, computer scientists etc. are _not_ part of the population

But there are 'disadvantaged' engineers, technologists etc.. There are numerous medical conditions that can make employment nearly impossible, while actual work is possible. Just talk to some HR people if they would hire someone with some sort of chronic disease. Most will be very reluctant, despite the fact that this condition might nevery have material consequences on the work you are doing.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#56

Post by yodon » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #38

gota wrote: post #18

Well, virtually nobody browsing HN can say they share the pains of the workers of the US that 'suffer when compared with the rest of the world'. Sure, there are many low-income residents, high inequality, high turnover, low unemployment with low upward job mobility, etc. All those things are true for the 'disadvantaged', and engineers, technologists, computer scientists etc. are _not_ part of the population that make…

> nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU because they'd be better there If not the EU, there is this fairly European country that shares timezones with the US and has a reasonable tech scene going on, and you can actually drive back and forth between the US and this country across the longest undefended border in the world. It used to be one of the US's best friends and strongest allies.…

As a general note, it’s better to not use code formatting for quotes because it makes the quotes unreadable on mobile

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#57

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

sol_remmy wrote: post #51

ceejayoz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the Western European governments have _death panels_ to decide who deserves medical care and who deserves to die. In the US, we just call them "insurance companies". > And, in Western Europe, you must wait over a month for your non-urgent surgery Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US? https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-rel... > In a survey of 15 large U.S. metropolitan ar…

> Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US? Whatever you say on this does not line up with reality. The UK, a nation of 60 million, has 120,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-patients-waiti... That would be equivilant to over 640,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery in a country with 320 million people. The wait times do not compare. They…

> The wait times do not compare. They are 10x, 20x worse in Europe.

What's the surgical wait time for an uninsured American?

That's 12.2% of America, or forty million people. http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/16/news/economy/uninsured-ameri...

In some cases, this winds up being an infinite wait time: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02...

Side-note: I'm citing a whole bunch of sources in my replies to you. Maybe you could do so for your "10x, 20x" numbers?

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#58

Post by abritinthebay » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #29

nerdponx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for middle-class and upper-middle class workers. But there has always been an underclass of people who barely make enough to survive, lack the market power to negotiate for better wages, lack the ability to acquire new skills in order to get different jobs, and/or are stuck with their current employers for lack of other opportunities. This population is also susceptible to overtime abuse and wage theft.…

> I am sure that much of that take-home pay is offset by higher medical costs and the need for more retirement savings This is not true. Those same workers get most or all of their insurance costs covered by the company. Same goes for retirement with 401k plans, etc. > Not to mention the fact that the American work week is longer and vacation days are rarer. This is true.

This comment betrays an incredible misunderstanding or naivety of how medical insurance works in the US, and what/how it covers people.

Also a completely bizarre use of 401(k)’s which are not available to most citizens and are highly volatile.

Compared to the rest of the world the US spends more individually on healthcare & gets less. It’s average retirement savings are amongst the lowest in the developed world!

Hand waving away like you’re doing is not supported by the facts.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#59

Post by sunshinelackof » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

While it may be true for a subset of posters here, the idea of just finding a new job if it doesn't suit you is not possible for most people. The majority of people need to be able to do something mildly productive and be able to live a happy life as a result. If your economic model is leaving this many people behind--or they even feel they're being left behind it's not a good model.

Everyday I find it harder to argue against things like medicare-for-all. Private healthcare only adds unneeded pressure to workers--heck even me sometimes. Even if it weren't cheaper which it should be[1], there is surely some value that soulless accountants could extract from lower stressors in the workplace.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/upshot/why-single-payer-h...

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#60

Post by sol_remmy » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

realusername wrote: post #41

arethuza wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entry to both medical school and law school is usually done straight from high school in the UK.

Same in France, I guess the US is structured differently but overall it's probably the same amount of years. I doubt they study more than 6 or 9 years after high school or otherwise it's a bit too long.

Post-high school schooling for a standard family doctor (one of the lowest paid doctors): 4 years bachelors + 4 years medical school + 3 years residency = 11 years post-high school education.