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The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

wired.com

41–50 of 66 posts

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#41

Never understood the underpaying of highly qualified people in the govt. Making a sacrifice for your country in a high powered / representative position is one thing, but the rank and file? Billions are spent on defense contracts and old software, but when bringing on teams of people to revamp the system, they want these people to take more than a 50% pay cut. D.C. is an expensive place to live as well. If you think…

>>don't be cheap about it.

Throw in Pension, Health Benefits, Over time pay and other benefits and it won't be cheap any more.

Not all forms of pay come in a monthly pay check.

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this article does a wonderful job explaining why the military is built the way it is: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/08/the-command-and-co... If Command and Control is such a bad way to run a team, why does the military use it? This was explained to me in NCO school. I was in the Israeli paratroopers in 1986. Probably the worst paratrooper they ever had, now that I think back. There are several standi…

> the whole military is built around authoritarianism and slavish obedience This is a huge misconception people have about the military. In fact the core philosophy of command in western militaries is one of enabling people to make their own independent decisions. The military wants nothing less than non-thinking obedient slaves because they know that’s how wars are lost.

For an example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics

If you have only non-thinking slaves you are done the moment anything doesn't go to plan. Instead of working with the situation the whole operation would come to a halt until people could reach their superiors to find out how to proceed. They would probably be dead by then.

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad they'd spend millions to catch moles but can't somehow afford to pay the crucial people the right sum. If you've got people who have access to valuable information consider their financial situation and adjust their compensation accordingly so they're never left wanting, your enemies will use the same damn information to make them turn on you... Why the hell not beat them to the punch? If they've got their expens…

Just like Wayne Knight's character Nedry in Jurassic Park, where do you put a stop on what needs to be paid to keep things safe? It's a dangerous game to place a price on safety if the sole determinant is the loyalty of the individual.

I never got the 'spared no expense' line until today. Thank you for adding another layer to my favourite childhood movie.

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#45
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps a better analogy: let's say you're hiring people with the offer that you'll pay them $2M the first year, then nothing for 20 years. The danger is that the person will quit. So it is more conservative to offer a deal where you pay them nothing for 20 years, then $2M. Then you're pretty sure they'll stay, especially if they're 15 years in. I think that's probably the best way to understand the salary/pension tr…

This system doesn’t work at all if people believe pensions are being cut.

Or that you can (apparently? I heard?) lose your pension entirely if you get fired before reaching retirement age.

(pension funds should be owned by the person using it, so that you will have access to it at retirement age even when you're fired. An employer should also not be able to take anything from it, and be held liable if they don't pay it.)

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this article does a wonderful job explaining why the military is built the way it is: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/08/the-command-and-co... If Command and Control is such a bad way to run a team, why does the military use it? This was explained to me in NCO school. I was in the Israeli paratroopers in 1986. Probably the worst paratrooper they ever had, now that I think back. There are several standi…

> the whole military is built around authoritarianism and slavish obedience This is a huge misconception people have about the military. In fact the core philosophy of command in western militaries is one of enabling people to make their own independent decisions. The military wants nothing less than non-thinking obedient slaves because they know that’s how wars are lost.

>This is a huge misconception people have about the military.

I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. It's difficult to call what is being clearly demonstrated through multiple channels "a huge misconception". Especially considering this is an Israeli NCO saying this, when the Israelis have a reputation for actually being one of the most individualistic armies in the West.

>In fact the core philosophy of command in western militaries is one of enabling people to make their own independent decisions.

Compared to the earlier forms of warfare, this is absolutely true. A modern NCO has a level of independent from central command that would have utterly flabbergasted officers even a hundred years ago. Heck, Roman centurions were afforded less autonomy to make decisions than we give modernly to srgts.

But in absolute terms, compared to the civilian sector? The military is still an extremely authoritarian place that is utterly slavish to obedience. Because it has to be, men still need to obey their superiors when told to do things they might not want to do. Yes lower and lower ranks are given the freedom to set their own objectives and adapt on the fly to changing circumstances, and compared to the rest of military history that is quite something, but they still are not remotely individualistic or all that autonomous compared to non-military contexts.

I mean why do you suppose we retain the officer/enlisted divide, and still demand both sides keep a cordial but distant relationship? It's because we still need the authoritarian stuff as a backbone, so when an officer says "Jump" an enlisted man jumps rather than trying to argue. The Soviets found this out the hard way after the 1917 revolution, when they tried abolishing the officer corps. as a vestige of elitist authoritarianism and it backfired so horrifically they had to gobble up defecting white army officers just to survive.

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the whole military is built around authoritarianism and slavish obedience This is a huge misconception people have about the military. In fact the core philosophy of command in western militaries is one of enabling people to make their own independent decisions. The military wants nothing less than non-thinking obedient slaves because they know that’s how wars are lost.

>This is a huge misconception people have about the military. I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. It's difficult to call what is being clearly demonstrated through multiple channels "a huge misconception". Especially considering this is an Israeli NCO saying this, when the Israelis have a reputation for actually being one of the most indivi…

> I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion.

You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire. Yes, there are situations where the military (or self-defense or many other things) train you to the point that muscle memory takes over and you just do what you have learned. Using that anecdote to somehow say "the whole military is" is not even a stretch anymore, it's just wrong.

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#48
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a huge misconception people have about the military. I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. It's difficult to call what is being clearly demonstrated through multiple channels "a huge misconception". Especially considering this is an Israeli NCO saying this, when the Israelis have a reputation for actually being one of the most indivi…

> I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire. Yes, there are situations where the military (or self-defense or many other things) train you to the point that muscle memory takes over and you just do what you ha…

>You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire

The first hand account is the former Israeli NCO paratrooper, the mine field example is just an illustration for why the military retains that style of management despite its problems.

>Using that anecdote to somehow say "the whole military is" is not even a stretch anymore, it's just wrong.

And I can clearly see you didn't actually read the whole article I linked to, and are instead trying to argue just based on my minor quotation. I really recommend you fully read it before arguing, both for your own edification and because it's really interesting.

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#49
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire. Yes, there are situations where the military (or self-defense or many other things) train you to the point that muscle memory takes over and you just do what you ha…

>You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire The first hand account is the former Israeli NCO paratrooper, the mine field example is just an illustration for why the military retains that style of management despite its problems. >Using that anecdote to somehow say "the whole military is" is not even a stretch anymore, it's…

> The first hand account is the former Israeli NCO paratrooper

The worst paratrooper they ever had, per their own admission.

The US does not train the same way Israel does. Which does not train the same way China does, or Germany does, and so on.

Re: The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the whole military is built around authoritarianism and slavish obedience This is a huge misconception people have about the military. In fact the core philosophy of command in western militaries is one of enabling people to make their own independent decisions. The military wants nothing less than non-thinking obedient slaves because they know that’s how wars are lost.

>This is a huge misconception people have about the military. I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. It's difficult to call what is being clearly demonstrated through multiple channels "a huge misconception". Especially considering this is an Israeli NCO saying this, when the Israelis have a reputation for actually being one of the most indivi…

> I just gave you a first hand account of it

From someone who describes themselves as being very bad at the job! Maybe this was what he was getting wrong?

> when an officer says "Jump" an enlisted man jumps rather than trying to argue

This is what people get wrong. When an officer says 'jump' the enlisted man actually responds 'tell me what you want me to achieve, sir, then it's my job to decide how I want to make it happen whether that's jumping or something else'.

A junior non-commissioned officer will tell you respectfully but firmly to back well off if you start telling them how to complete a task.

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