Live data from Hacker News

Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

mindhacks.com

11–20 of 34 posts

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#11
The papers abstract is a bit more interesting than this summary. It looks like they compared 14 studies of reaction time over decades, not just Galtons: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016028961...

>The Victorian era was marked by an explosion of innovation and genius, per capita rates of which appear to have declined subsequently. The presence of dysgenic fertility for IQ amongst Western nations, starting in the 19th century, suggests that these trends might be related to declining IQ. This is because high-IQ people are more productive and more creative. We tested the hypothesis that the Victorians were cleverer than modern populations, using high-quality instruments, namely measures of simple visual reaction time in a meta-analytic study. Simple reaction time measures correlate substantially with measures of general intelligence (g) and are considered elementary measures of cognition. In this study we used the data on the secular slowing of simple reaction time described in a meta-analysis of 14 age-matched studies from Western countries conducted between 1889 and 2004 to estimate the decline in g that may have resulted from the presence of dysgenic fertility. Using psychometric meta-analysis we computed the true correlation between simple reaction time and g, yielding a decline of − 1.16 IQ points per decade or − 13.35 IQ points since Victorian times. These findings strongly indicate that with respect to g the Victorians were substantially cleverer than modern Western populations.

It's not terribly convincing just by itself. He's done newer work showing that other proxies for IQ like vocabulary have also decreased over time: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4404736/ And math SAT scores have dropped over time: https://brainsize.wordpress.com/tag/michael-a-woodley/ But we are only just starting to be able to test for genes that correlate with intelligence to see if they have decreased over time.

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#12

The Victorians. Kind of an artificial make-believe people set. Better to suppose "some" and not generalize for the universe of all possible people. Furthermore, nowhere is the process of measurement, or quality measured, noted. Is it simple reflex tests (tapping the knee with a small rubber mallet) or something else?

You can read the original description of the apparatus here:

http://galton.org/bib/JournalItem.aspx_action=view_id=180

It's a pendulum which is released (either silently or with a click), and a button for the subject which records the angle at which it was pressed.

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#13

The papers abstract is a bit more interesting than this summary. It looks like they compared 14 studies of reaction time over decades, not just Galtons: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016028961... >The Victorian era was marked by an explosion of innovation and genius, per capita rates of which appear to have declined subsequently. The presence of dysgenic fertility for IQ amongst Western nations,…

One complaint IIRC was that the Victorian sample might have been more skewed towards the elite than the current ones -- people attending science lectures, or something.

I haven't read the paper linked, Woodley-teNijenhuis-Murphy, but do they address this?

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#14

The papers abstract is a bit more interesting than this summary. It looks like they compared 14 studies of reaction time over decades, not just Galtons: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016028961... >The Victorian era was marked by an explosion of innovation and genius, per capita rates of which appear to have declined subsequently. The presence of dysgenic fertility for IQ amongst Western nations,…

> may have resulted from the presence of dysgenic fertility

The effects might be interesting, but it seems like an entirely unsupported logical leap to attribute any effect to this cause.

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#15

Interesting, and perhaps indicative of different environmental conditions now? I wonder if there's a toxicological or immunological explanation, or whether it's simply due to differing recreational and activity choices.

Reaction times are strongly correlated with IQ which, in turn, has strong inverse correlations with many of the characteristics for people who are, and have been, reproducing the most. The paper proposes this, 'dysgenic fertility', as a possible explanation. As an aside this is not an implicit reference to e.g. Africa. This problem exists on an international and intranational level. E.g. in the US people who have household income of less than $10,000 have a fertility rate 150% that of those with a household income greater than $200,000 with a surprisingly smooth fertility:income gradient between the two. [1]

Crucially, the heritability of IQ seems to be only increasing the more we learn about it. Older studies showed it to 'only' be around 60% with more modern research indicating it is upwards of 80%. [2] One peculiar, and confounding effect, here is how IQ behaves on youth. In young age environmental conditions can play a more substantial role in IQ, yet as youth approach adolescence and beyond their IQ tends to approach their 'genetic expectation.'

---

And all the above assumes something many do not seem aware of (based on a different thread). IQs in the developed world seem to have started to substantially decline with no viable convenient explanation. Environmental or educational conditions achieving diminishing returns are what we would like to believe, yet of course if that was the case we'd expect to see an asymptotic decline of growth approaching 0. Instead we are seeing an actual decline in IQ. [3] One conflicting bit here is that most evidence indicates this decline started happening sometime in the mid 90s. Prior to that IQs had been increasingly, though more slowly over time - but that decline of growth is to be expected.

[1a] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam...

[1b] - https://www.census.gov/topics/health/fertility.html (the statista graph presents this data in a cleaner format - adding this as just a more reliable source than random internet site)

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect#Possible_end_of_p...

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#16
post #12

The Victorians. Kind of an artificial make-believe people set. Better to suppose "some" and not generalize for the universe of all possible people. Furthermore, nowhere is the process of measurement, or quality measured, noted. Is it simple reflex tests (tapping the knee with a small rubber mallet) or something else?

You can read the original description of the apparatus here: http://galton.org/bib/JournalItem.aspx_action=view_id=180 It's a pendulum which is released (either silently or with a click), and a button for the subject which records the angle at which it was pressed.

It doesn't sound like they actually compared apples to apples by performing the same test as a modern replication of results though.

A similar apparatus is not named or sited, when noting the modern equivalent. Does that matter? Couldn't there be side-effects for measure reation time to different stimuli?

Also, did modern 1941 measurements operate with the benefit of newer advancements, such as high-speed cinematography to produce objective slow-motion footage?

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#17

Interesting, and perhaps indicative of different environmental conditions now? I wonder if there's a toxicological or immunological explanation, or whether it's simply due to differing recreational and activity choices.

Reaction times are strongly correlated with IQ which, in turn, has strong inverse correlations with many of the characteristics for people who are, and have been, reproducing the most. The paper proposes this, 'dysgenic fertility', as a possible explanation. As an aside this is not an implicit reference to e.g. Africa. This problem exists on an international and intranational level. E.g. in the US people who have hou…

IQs in the developed world seem to have started to substantially decline with no viable convenient explanation.

Maybe what's happening is that IQ has been declining for a longer time, but the gains in health and nutrition were offsetting the effect. An interesting variable to compare to is life expectancy, which is a proxy for health. Its growth in western countries has been slowing and in the US it has even started declining. Studies have shown a link between IQ and life expectancy. Those studies generally looked towards a reason why higher IQ would lead to higher life expectancy, but perhaps the causation is reverse.

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#19

Interesting, and perhaps indicative of different environmental conditions now? I wonder if there's a toxicological or immunological explanation, or whether it's simply due to differing recreational and activity choices.

Increased CO2 exposure is one possibility, both from increased atmospheric levels, and from more thermal insulation of buildings:

https://thinkprogress.org/exclusive-elevated-co2-levels-dire...

Re: Did the Victorians have faster reactions?

#20

Vaccinations have probably let the weaker and slower people survive.

Some vaccines prevent diseases (like smallpox) that can disproportionately affect young and healthy people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_release_syndrome

> It is believed that cytokine storms were responsible for the disproportionate number of healthy young adult deaths during the 1918 influenza pandemic, which killed 50 to 100 million people.[12] In this case, a healthy immune system may have been a liability rather than an asset. Preliminary research results from Hong Kong also indicated this as the probable reason for many deaths during the SARS epidemic in 2003.[13] Human deaths from the bird flu H5N1 usually involve cytokine storms as well.[14] Cytokine storm has also been implicated in hantavirus pulmonary syndrome.

Post reply on HN