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Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

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Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#91

Post by fernandopj »

reaperducer wrote: post #79
astrodust wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't progress, this is death by gentrification. It's utterly sad that the same chain stores, the same shops, the same products are sold coast to coast, that the menus of most restaurants have basically zero variation from Louisiana to Arizona to California to Maine, places that historically could not be more different. Now you can land in some random city in the US and apart from a few very small pockets that h…

This isn't progress, this is death by gentrification I don't know if gentrification is the right word. Maybe death by standardization. The big breakthrough that made McDonald's a successful company was coming up with processes and supply chains that allowed its food to be predictable. Before McDonald's, when you drove across the country and stopped at a burger joint, you never knew what the food would be like. Today,…

> With the exception of Russia and Georgia, it's said that no two nations that have McDonald's have ever gone to war.

> A lot of people with no understanding of history laughed when it was brought up that opening a McDonald's in North Korea was an important part of the Trump-Kim summit. But diplomats saw it as a watershed moment.

That's the first time I hear that correlation, and it's amazing. I could see that opening a McDonald's in NK would be symbolic, but not at that one-layer-deeper level. It's the kind of freakonomics insight I'll be able to drop at conversations for a long time!

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#92

Post by Kalium »

astrodust wrote: post #58
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a lot to be said for shared institutions like government, religion, retail and media. You can drive to the other coast, and during your four or five-day journey, you will decent roads and useful signage; truck stops from same 5 chains (in truth, only 3 different companies) with reliable bathrooms, fuel, and drinks; restaurants from the same dozen chains serving familiar food; Walmarts where you can be in…

This isn't progress, this is death by gentrification. It's utterly sad that the same chain stores, the same shops, the same products are sold coast to coast, that the menus of most restaurants have basically zero variation from Louisiana to Arizona to California to Maine, places that historically could not be more different. Now you can land in some random city in the US and apart from a few very small pockets that h…

You're right! That sounds like an amazing experience, going to a different part of your country and finding a deeply different culture. Where accent and vocabulary and daily life are all different. Where there's a sense of place, and a distinct local identity and history.

It's perhaps possible that you and I are so wonderfully blessed as to already live in such a place!

I've had the experience of struggling to understand the local dialect. To work to absorb the local diction and vocabulary, to come to grips with local history and understand the local identity.

It's easy to see a Taco Bell, a Starbucks, and a cookie-cutter diner and decide every place is the same. To be sure, those very much are. Yet, it's perhaps possible that this is just a patina. What you and I and others seek and love is there, today, still. It lives and breathes and thrives. It just requires a token effort to look for.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#93

Post by vram22 »

derekp7 wrote: post #72
vram22 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting thing is that despite all that, there is still a huge amount of diversity in the US, along many dimensions, based on what I've read in Wikipedia, for example, about regional US cuisines. The US might be a melting pot, but many of the ingredients in the pot are not quite melted - to coin a phrase :) - and I hope they stay that way.

More like a tossed salad!

Ha, great analogy :)

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#94

Post by rayiner »

astrodust wrote: post #58
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a lot to be said for shared institutions like government, religion, retail and media. You can drive to the other coast, and during your four or five-day journey, you will decent roads and useful signage; truck stops from same 5 chains (in truth, only 3 different companies) with reliable bathrooms, fuel, and drinks; restaurants from the same dozen chains serving familiar food; Walmarts where you can be in…

This isn't progress, this is death by gentrification. It's utterly sad that the same chain stores, the same shops, the same products are sold coast to coast, that the menus of most restaurants have basically zero variation from Louisiana to Arizona to California to Maine, places that historically could not be more different. Now you can land in some random city in the US and apart from a few very small pockets that h…

> I want to visit an America where I can't understand what they're saying even though it's allegedly English, where you need to work at it, absorb the local dialect.

It may be more interesting to visit such an America, but it would be a lot harder to democratically govern such an America.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#95

Post by nrp »

derekp7 wrote: post #71
astrodust wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't progress, this is death by gentrification. It's utterly sad that the same chain stores, the same shops, the same products are sold coast to coast, that the menus of most restaurants have basically zero variation from Louisiana to Arizona to California to Maine, places that historically could not be more different. Now you can land in some random city in the US and apart from a few very small pockets that h…

There is still a lot of that out there (getting smaller though). For example if you aren't in the American South, don't expect to be able to order sweet tea in a restaurant -- instead, you will get iced tea and some packets of sugar (which isn't the same as putting sugar in when the tea is being made). Only recently have I seen sweet tea offered in some places. I grew up in the midwest, however my mom is from the dee…

Sweet tea is an interesting example actually, in that McDonalds made it available nationally 10 years ago.

There is a certain amount of culinary darwinism at play here, where the strongest regional foods have gone national over the last couple of decades. See also, Chipotle scaling the Mission burrito to thousands of stores.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#96

Post by cpursley »

reaperducer wrote: post #79
astrodust wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't progress, this is death by gentrification. It's utterly sad that the same chain stores, the same shops, the same products are sold coast to coast, that the menus of most restaurants have basically zero variation from Louisiana to Arizona to California to Maine, places that historically could not be more different. Now you can land in some random city in the US and apart from a few very small pockets that h…

This isn't progress, this is death by gentrification I don't know if gentrification is the right word. Maybe death by standardization. The big breakthrough that made McDonald's a successful company was coming up with processes and supply chains that allowed its food to be predictable. Before McDonald's, when you drove across the country and stopped at a burger joint, you never knew what the food would be like. Today,…

> when I buy fries in St. Petersburg, Florida, they taste exactly the same as the ones I get in St. Petersburg, Russia.

I'm an American currently living in Russia. McDonald's menu here is different. In fact, it's better and the ingredients are higher quality (which is quite ironic). Same for all American fast-food chains in Russia (and Europe, for that matter).

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#97

Post by singingfish »

rayiner wrote: post #94
astrodust wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't progress, this is death by gentrification. It's utterly sad that the same chain stores, the same shops, the same products are sold coast to coast, that the menus of most restaurants have basically zero variation from Louisiana to Arizona to California to Maine, places that historically could not be more different. Now you can land in some random city in the US and apart from a few very small pockets that h…

> I want to visit an America where I can't understand what they're saying even though it's allegedly English, where you need to work at it, absorb the local dialect. It may be more interesting to visit such an America, but it would be a lot harder to democratically govern such an America.

I dunno, I kind of get the feeling indonesian democracy is in a healthier state than american democracy.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#98

Post by singingfish »

perlancar3 wrote: post #24
curtis wrote: post #14

Some things I learned when I was in Singapore and Indonesia about 10 years ago: - Our Singaporean host had business dealings in Indonesia and he said he could get by just relying on his Malay language skills, so it seems that Malay and Bahasa Indonesia have a decent degree of mutual intelligibility. - In one of the national museums we ran into an American professor who had been teaching part time in Indonesia for man…

Malay and Indonesian language are like British and American English, except with far more difference in vocabulary and far more false cognates. Although not nearly as different as, say, Portuguese and Spanish. Yes, a typical Malaysian or Singaporean (especially if he has native or near native Malay language skill) will be able to order food at restaurants, buy stuffs, ask for directions, and even converse with an Ind…

Yeah malay does my head in (I speak ok Behasa Baku, and I can usually make sense of dialecty Behasa Indonesia). However with malay it's like you can be having a totally intelligible conversation, except every 7th word you say is entirely wrong.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#99

Post by darcys22 »

singingfish wrote: post #97
rayiner wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to visit an America where I can't understand what they're saying even though it's allegedly English, where you need to work at it, absorb the local dialect. It may be more interesting to visit such an America, but it would be a lot harder to democratically govern such an America.

I dunno, I kind of get the feeling indonesian democracy is in a healthier state than american democracy.

Based on what?

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#100

Post by HumanDrivenDev »

singingfish wrote: post #97
rayiner wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to visit an America where I can't understand what they're saying even though it's allegedly English, where you need to work at it, absorb the local dialect. It may be more interesting to visit such an America, but it would be a lot harder to democratically govern such an America.

I dunno, I kind of get the feeling indonesian democracy is in a healthier state than american democracy.

Do you know anything at all about indonesian politics?
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