Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg • Hacker News Board

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#21

Post by Sean1708 » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:29 AM UTC

radisb wrote: post #10

Tomte wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is. Raids can also be at witnesses' places if it is necessary to get the evidence. Otherwise I'd simply stow the bodies in my friends' cellars.

Help me understand as I am not living in Germany: Authorities can search and seize property of any civilian without a warrant if said civilian is just a witness? If yes, then who decides and how is it decided that someone is a witness? If for example I happen to stand in front of my window and witness a crime being committed in the street, they could search my house without any consent or warrant?

These two other articles might provide you with more information:

* https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2018/hausdurchsuchungen-bei-ve...

* https://blog.torservers.net/20180704/coordinated-raids-of-zw...

The long and short of it is that there was a warrant, the question is whether the warrant itself was issued on a legitimate basis.

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#22

Post by Tomte » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:32 AM UTC

YouAreGreat wrote: post #17

Tomte wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is highly probable that there was a warrant. Why do you claim otherwise, have I overlooked such reporting in the article or elsewhere?

From the other submitted link[1], we learn that yes, there was a warrant, but limitations were boldly ignored: > The warrant lists specific items. This was not respected. Assuming that fact, was it legal? [1] https://blog.torservers.net/20180704/coordinated-raids-of-zw...

Probably not in its entirety.

But that discussion is pretty useless, since our version of the exclusionary rule is more toothless than an American could possibly imagine. Basically, everything found can be used in court.

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#23

Post by adrianN » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:33 AM UTC

throwwwafgk wrote: post #20

blattimwind wrote: post #4

The gist of it: Someone did something probably illegal and put a @riseup mail in as the contact info. Police looked at riseup (Not-in-Germany) and found some people (In-Germany) forwarding donation money to riseup. Police and state prosecutor somehow conclude that these donations might be relevant and seizes them (and the usual bycatch). -- Now my commentary: On the face of it this seems overblown and rather out of p…

Whatever a "leftist hateblog" (!) might be, that description doesn't seem to be fitting here.

I think he means the website calling for people to disrupt the AFD party congress.

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#24

Post by ckastner » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:37 AM UTC

singularity2001 wrote: post #16

donquichotte wrote: post #6

Fun fact: the police found a "3d printed, bomb shaped object" and put it into an evidence bag with the label "offence: causing an explosive blast". The object can be seen in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8

to be more precise, police identified it as "presumed model of an atomic bomb". But the criminal offence is spot on: http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1310464-860_poster_16x9-...

Incredible. It is obvious that they will not be able to show intent beyond reasonable doubt as to this "crime" (they even acknowledge it is just a model), proceeding regardless is just farcical.

Amusingly enough, they labeled it "mutmaßliches Modell einer Atombombe" (presumptive model of an atomic bomb) with the crime being "Herbeiführen einer Sprengstoffexplosion" (causing an explosion), but the relevant norm [1] explicitly excludes nuclear explosions.

[1] https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/308.html

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#25

Post by _ak » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:45 AM UTC

niklasd wrote: post #18

A bit of perspective for non-Germans: The raid was ordered from Bavaria, a state in Germany which is traditionally governed by the conservative CSU party, which is currently also in the (international) headlines for the ongoing immigration fight, since they are part of the federal government with Merkel (they are taking a very though standpoint on immigration). Just recently this party introduced a new police law in…

The. CSU. Is. Not. Conservative.

Call them what they are: a right-wing populist law-and-order party that is only active in the state of Bavaria, but terrorises the rest of Germany with their reactionary and regressive policies.

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#26

Post by Tomte » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:47 AM UTC

niklasd wrote: post #18

A bit of perspective for non-Germans: The raid was ordered from Bavaria, a state in Germany which is traditionally governed by the conservative CSU party, which is currently also in the (international) headlines for the ongoing immigration fight, since they are part of the federal government with Merkel (they are taking a very though standpoint on immigration). Just recently this party introduced a new police law in…

And Munich is traditionally governed by the center-left SPD.

I find your attempt to inject party politics in this a diversion.

Just because the state government is well to the right and turning populist, it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same.

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#27

Post by khabaal » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:53 AM UTC

Its especially chilling, because in germany, we dont have the food of the poisonous tree doctrine. So even if the police searches those places illegaly, if they find something else while conducting the search, lets say small amount of drugs, they will prosecute you for that.

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#28

Post by keldaris » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:54 AM UTC

niklasd wrote: post #18

A bit of perspective for non-Germans: The raid was ordered from Bavaria, a state in Germany which is traditionally governed by the conservative CSU party, which is currently also in the (international) headlines for the ongoing immigration fight, since they are part of the federal government with Merkel (they are taking a very though standpoint on immigration). Just recently this party introduced a new police law in…

I understand some of the searches took place outside of Bavaria, though (Berlin, etc.)? How does the German legal system work in this case, does police in other German states automatically cooperate with requests from Bavaria even when there's potentially a discrepancy between the laws used to provide the legal justification for the actions in question?

I've seen a general sentiment in HN and other tech circles over the years that Germany is much less of a police state than the U.S. or the UK, for instance, and generally has greater respect for privacy and other rights many of us care about. Do you feel that perception is still broadly accurate?

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#29

Post by vuln » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 11:56 AM UTC

erikb wrote: post #7

Tomte wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is. Raids can also be at witnesses' places if it is necessary to get the evidence. Otherwise I'd simply stow the bodies in my friends' cellars.

But for raids there needs to be reason. I think something like the second Iraq war cannot happen inside a legal system without repercussion, at least as long as the legal system still functions.

Nah you can drop 26 thousand bombs without ever being at 'war'

https://www.cfr.org/blog/how-many-bombs-did-united-states-dr...

Re: Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg

#30

Post by PythonicAlpha » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 12:00 PM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #26

niklasd wrote: post #18

A bit of perspective for non-Germans: The raid was ordered from Bavaria, a state in Germany which is traditionally governed by the conservative CSU party, which is currently also in the (international) headlines for the ongoing immigration fight, since they are part of the federal government with Merkel (they are taking a very though standpoint on immigration). Just recently this party introduced a new police law in…

And Munich is traditionally governed by the center-left SPD. I find your attempt to inject party politics in this a diversion. Just because the state government is well to the right and turning populist, it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same.

> it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same.

In theory.

In practice, many entities which work even in judiciary are influenced by party politics.

The current 2nd mayor of Munich is from the CSU -- so the winds have changed. The CSU is (since the last election) much more important than before and it seems that the SPD is massively weakened in Munich. This is also the reason for throwing out Linux It systems of Munich.