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Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

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Re: Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

#161

Post by lotsofcows »

jiggunjer wrote: post #149
bpizzi wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, cheating involves lying. A spouse is explicitly or at least implicitly expecting the other part no to lie about extra relations. If lying about those extra relations in this context doesn't makes you a bad person, then I don't know what is.

Logical fallacy. Doing one bad thing does not make one a "bad person" if such a thing even exists. If the alternative is to break up a family so the cheater can be 'honest' with him-/herself, is a lie and a happy family worse than a broken family? Stop seeing things black and white.

Yes, hypocrisy is one of the worst things that you can to yourself and others.

Re: Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

#162

Post by miga »

mc32 wrote: post #12

AFAIK, many foreigners [read: other Asians as well as a sprinkling of non-Asians] (as well nationals from outside a city but who do business in said city) who are married have either "second wives[1]" in these alternate city offices or they have their marriages die in said places. It has some intriguing aspects, such as the children of the "first wife" are often seen as more legitimate. Also often the wives tolerate…

Seems very similar to what happens to both men and women of status in other parts of the world.

Re: Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

#163

Post by icelancer »

noobermin wrote: post #105
zergleader wrote: post #19

Pretty much. One of the most strange things I experience in America is the insistence that America is somehow the most sexist / racist country. Oh boy! When the current generation of social justice from America floods its banks and arrives in Asia there is going to be an ugly reckoning. I think the idea that many of China’s troubles (corruption / pollution / freedom reductions) are a byproduct of the extreme rapid mo…

It's always easy to tell someone they have it good when we all live on a power law. Just tell them to look a notch down and see someone half their height, just as long as they don't look up at you and see your waist. The entire structure of the American economy and the attitudes it uses to keep its subjects in check are of this form. In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places, namely…

>> They know it is the structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society.

I highly doubt that Japan will ever become as "socially aware" as the United States is currently, which is not really that much, if we're being honest. These countries are already very developed and have strong near-monocultures in them, and a pasttime for both Chinese and Japanese people is to make fun of Americans for being "soft" or giving a shit about social justice.

If you adjust your timeline to hundreds of years, maybe. But I really don't think a wave of social justice is likely to happen in those countries at the rate it is happening in the United States.

Re: Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

#164

Post by icelancer »

BadassFractal wrote: post #61
sn41 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Double standards like these are present in America as well. A friend complained to that a financial firm based in Georgia went through this entire rigmarole of checking his Facebook profile as a prospective employee, only to have the first group meeting in a strip club. He asked me, do they assume that they are never going to hire female employees?

I read recently that the Chinese have a term for that, something like "Western white savior" to refer to westerners who moralize about Chinese culture and act like they will show the morally primitive East the righteous way forward with their progressive views.

Correct. Japanese do as well.

The idea that Americans are going to bring up the cultureless sexist/racist/whatever Asians is indeed made fun of regularly. Well-meaning Americans have decent intentions but are also pretty culturally tone deaf on Asian societies; before we seek to export social justice, we should probably figure out how and why their societies are structured the way they are and understand the timeline you're looking at.

Re: Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

#166

Post by mmsimanga »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #54
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not trust any person who cheated on their spouse either. Nor would I want to hang out with colleagues at a strip club if we were not friends outside of work. I don’t think this is some gender thing. Maybe be men are more likely to be coerced into doing these things. But I think they’re having fun.

>I would not trust any person who cheated on their spouse either. I would be careful about that, because that group includes the likes of Martin Luther King, Jr., Stephen Hawking, Einstein, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm inclined to feel the same way, and have ended personal relationships when I found out someone had cheated on their spouse, but some of history's greatest figures cheated on their spouse.

The older I get the more I realise life is complicated. I get the need for us to strive to be the best we can be and to those around us but it ain't easy. Please don't get me wrong, imoral acts should be condemned but often I wonder when I reading wording on headlines whether the person killed 3 innocent people or had an affair.

Re: Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

#167

Post by icelancer »

akudha wrote: post #119
crypt1d wrote: post #115

is it just me or the amount of bigotry in the comments here is ridiculous? some people do business differently, get over it. Not everyone agrees with the western "politically correct" approach to life, and that's ok.

Personally I don't care what others do. I care if I am put in a position that I have to engage in these activities, just to win a contract, get paid or whatever else. Especially if I wasn't warned in advance. I guess it would be better for everyone if the interviewee is asked "You might have to participate in, err, hard parties. Would you be okay with it?" The other thing you have to consider is these can be much wor…

>> I guess it would be better for everyone if the interviewee is asked "You might have to participate in, err, hard parties. Would you be okay with it?"

If you did business in Asia, you would quickly realize this attitude is ridiculous for any number of reasons, not the least being strip club visits.

Asian business is all about maintaining and saving face. When in China once, our factory rep offered to us let pick where to go get food. We chose four places and got "hmm, no, don't think that would work well for you" until we chose a place and they agreed. When we got there, our names were placed and the restaurant was clearly waiting for our group.

The entire thing was a sham and set up from the beginning to force us into a choice. But they wanted us to have the feeling of control, even if we immediately knew it was bullshit. They're not stupid.

Directness like you talk about is simply not acceptable when it comes to any number of negotiating tactics. This is something you learn very quickly if you do logistics or sales in China, or you simply just don't get any work.

>> The other thing you have to consider is these can be much worse for women and minorities than straight men.

Chinese businessmen don't care about this. Just because Americans do, or it's the right thing to do, doesn't make it something that's going to happen.

Re: Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

#168

Post by dagw »

da02 wrote: post #48
godzillabrennus wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I helped a sales focused tech company as their CTO for a few years. The sales team met at the bar for lunch and after work. Drugs were everywhere. The CFO kept a liquor cabinet in his desk drawer. There were parties all the time. Orgies were not uncommon. They ended up being acquired before they could get full on wolf on wallstreet going but it was damn near close. I drank with them but never took it any further. It’…

Why would they get acquired? They were doing good work in-between the partying?

It's like that famous saying: "People who attend coke fueled orgies together, do multi-million dollar deals together".

Re: Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015)

#170

Post by 87 »

m_mueller wrote: post #144
zavi wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A premise that there's less racism in Europe than in the US is just wrong (I'm a European who've spent a lot of time in the US for work and school). US is the PC capital of the world (for better or worse). There's just not a whole lot of non-white folks in Europe even now.

You seem to have a better perspective on this than me, but isn't it also a question of how much people talk about race issues in the US vs. Europe? To me it seems like a bit of a mixed bag: * US Americans are generally very sensitive to the issue and try to be PC as much as possible. * Europeans are rather insensitive to it, which shows in two ways: A lot of people seem to be more color-blind, which IMO is the upside…

Your description is very accurate. But to me it's exactly why Europe is more racist or inegalitarian.

> differentiate between natives, people with immigration background and immigrants

Yes, in a racist/othering manner. Sure, in the US you might hear about someone being an immigrant or being born to an immigrant family. But this is almost universally mentioned as a positive reflecting ones Americanness. With illegal immigrants being the only notable exception. In Europe it's often the other way around.

This "it's not about race, it's about nationality/whatever" gambit is exactly how Europeans fool themselves into believing there isn't a problem. It's not about the word, it's about treating people badly for who they are.

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