British divers make contact with missing Thai football team • Hacker News Board

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#71

Post by ljcn » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #66

ljcn wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the "Hollywood bravery" you nicely describe really is bravery - Oxford Dictionaries says the word comes from French braverie or Italian braveria (boldness), based on Latin barbarus (c.f. barbarous). Alternatively it may be from bravo (wild, savage). Courage on the other hand comes from Old French corage , from Latin cor (heart). I think based on this the divers are courageous, not brave.

It's true that the word comes from those roots, but the Oxford dictionary you cite says plainly that the definition of the word as it is used today is: > Courageous behaviour or character. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bravery Just as long as we all agree that cave diving is not about being that ridiculous Hollywood stereotype dude who deliberately breaks all the rules for no damn reason and it works o…

I was agreeing with you. You wrote yourself that modern usage is synonymous, so I thought it would be interesting to look at the etymology too.

For the record the full OED favours the latter root for bravery (bravo braido, brado (wild, savage)). Strange they don't say the same thing.

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#72

Post by cimmanom » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #45

cimmanom wrote: post #15

Assuming the divers will have to shuttle supplies to the trapped team: is there a way to make repeated dives less risky, such as stringing a guide line that divers can follow?

Guide lines are absolutely essential in cave diving. At almost any point in a cave dive, there's a risk of disturbing silt and losing visibility. Cave divers have developed a sophisticated set of tools and techniques for navigating in conditions of low or zero visibility. Many underwater cave entrances are marked with a stark warning sign bearing an image of the grim reaper, imploring the diver to "prevent your death…

Oh, wow - thank you for the info. I had no idea.

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#73

Post by varjag » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

lawlessone wrote: post #34

varjag wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would there be feces? They aren't in sewers. And even if there was a chance of diarrhoea, what would be your alternative?

>Why would there be feces? Because they have to go too.

They are being flooded, fresh water goes in.. most likely along the walls too.

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#74

Post by danilocesar » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

SagelyGuru wrote: post #20

"None of them can swim" Great idea to take them down into a flooded cave in rainy season. Even though now found, they will still be very lucky to get out alive. How? I think it is the case of learn to swim and dive right down there or die. Whatever was their coach thinking?

"learn to swim and dive right down there or die."

It's quite common to see non-drivers saying this kind of non-sense.

I have more than 150 dives and even with wreck training and experience I would never, never, never do cave diving. It's ridiculous dangerous, even for experienced cave divers. Without visibility and training, people die. Experienced cave divers get panic attacks and die. It's hard to control someone during a panic attack in open waters, in confined environment it might be even impossible. Divers in panic are also a hazard for other divers.

That said, consider taking an untrained kid in an environment they have no experience with for three hours.

My bet is that they will not make them dive. I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking about diving lessons only to buy time and keep them occupied and give them hope;

Unless plan A (pump the water out) and plan B (wait until September ends) becomes a non-option (due to emergencies), they won't swim/dive they way out.

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#75

Post by varjag » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #31

varjag wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would there be feces? They aren't in sewers. And even if there was a chance of diarrhoea, what would be your alternative?

In flood waters? Because there is a little bit of everything in flood waters. Apparently there is water seeping into the space they are in. I'd drink that before I'd drink the inundation water.

But that's exactly what the GP said.. they are being flooded.

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#76

Post by SagelyGuru » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

danilocesar wrote: post #74

SagelyGuru wrote: post #20

"None of them can swim" Great idea to take them down into a flooded cave in rainy season. Even though now found, they will still be very lucky to get out alive. How? I think it is the case of learn to swim and dive right down there or die. Whatever was their coach thinking?

"learn to swim and dive right down there or die." It's quite common to see non-drivers saying this kind of non-sense. I have more than 150 dives and even with wreck training and experience I would never, never, never do cave diving. It's ridiculous dangerous, even for experienced cave divers. Without visibility and training, people die. Experienced cave divers get panic attacks and die. It's hard to control someone d…

You are right of course and that is why I said they will still be very lucky to get out alive. They don't even know how to swim and must be quite weak already.

Somehow I do not see keeping them there till September, with water levels possibly rising further, as much of an option either.

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#77

Post by fgGAMI » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:26 PM UTC

Could they use a long rope as a track/guide with the "packages" tethered to it?

How realistic would it be to drill a more convenient entrance from above?

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#78

Post by danilocesar » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #50

icebraining wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that the route is mapped, I wonder if you could get robots to do the supply trips instead.

It can be hard enough for a human to not get stuck somewhere in a cave. There's little chance you'll figure out how to get a robot to do the trip before the whole situation is resolved anyways. In such situations it's best to go with the simplest solution you know will work and people are trained for, instead of trying to get fancy and possibly endanger the whole undertaking (imagine a robot getting stuck somewhere a…

Yep.

I don't know anything about that cave, but it's quite common for cave divers to remove their equipment (and put it in front of them) because a passage is so small that the diver and a gas tank won't fit at the same time. What's the chance of a robot doing the same?

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#79

Post by ethbro » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:37 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #69

A_Person wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't be serious. Taking 13 people, with an absolute maximum of Open Water level training (if that), back out through hundreds (or thousands?) of meters of low or zero visibility diving, including (apparently) tight restrictions, without risking the lives of all concerned? Aint gonna happen - unless the water level drops to the point where they can just float back out.

What I don't understand is that surely there must be a wide enough passage for them to have got in in the first place. It may be flooded but if one can walk into them vertically, surely they should be fairly accessible to a diver horizontally. Can't they just follow / be attached to a string or something like that?

Current and silt, I imagine

Re: British divers make contact with missing Thai football team

#80

Post by danilocesar » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 2:42 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #69

A_Person wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't be serious. Taking 13 people, with an absolute maximum of Open Water level training (if that), back out through hundreds (or thousands?) of meters of low or zero visibility diving, including (apparently) tight restrictions, without risking the lives of all concerned? Aint gonna happen - unless the water level drops to the point where they can just float back out.

What I don't understand is that surely there must be a wide enough passage for them to have got in in the first place. It may be flooded but if one can walk into them vertically, surely they should be fairly accessible to a diver horizontally. Can't they just follow / be attached to a string or something like that?

Think about thin vertical passages. You can talk trough them easily but diving would be very difficult.

I know nothing about that cave, but passages between caves can be connected by tight restrictions. They might have crawled they way up. And now that restriction is flooded.