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Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

nytimes.com

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Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#51

Post by ng12 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #50
workinfunk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's almost surely a case of remembering the handful of times when the clocks were inaccurate because they caused you trouble, while forgetting the hundreds of times when they worked correctly. They do work correctly most of the time, and the A division works even better than the B division, as you'd expect. (the opposite of what OP claimed.)

> Yeah, it's almost surely a case of remembering the handful of times when the clocks were inaccurate because they caused you trouble, while forgetting the hundreds of times when they worked correctly. It absolutely is not availability bias, as demonstrated by the concrete data included in one of those links. But even if it were - the whole point of having those signs is to alert you about the actual state of the sub…

> * They only publish the scheduled times, not the actual estimated arrival times

Do you have a source for this? I'm positively certain it's not true. I time my commute every morning with the online subway clock that matches exactly with the one in the station -- I leave my apartment when the Q is ~8m away and it always arrives shortly after I get to the platform. I've only encountered one situation where the clock was unacceptably wrong: a downtown A train at 59th that was 1m away for over 5m. That happened over a year ago and I still remember it.

Similarly, when delays happen the clock does get updated accordingly. Today was a good example -- 24m for the next N train during commuting hours :/

I think you may be confusing the countdown clocks with the kiosks. Once upon a time they did display the scheduled time. I'm not sure if they still do but the above head displays are without a doubt more accurate. Anecdotally speaking, the margin of error seems to be roughly +/- one minute. I'm aware that's anecdotal evidence but I simply don't believe that somebody could take the subway on a daily basis and think the countdown clocks are that inaccurate.

Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#52

Post by workinfunk »

chimeracoder wrote: post #50
workinfunk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's almost surely a case of remembering the handful of times when the clocks were inaccurate because they caused you trouble, while forgetting the hundreds of times when they worked correctly. They do work correctly most of the time, and the A division works even better than the B division, as you'd expect. (the opposite of what OP claimed.)

> Yeah, it's almost surely a case of remembering the handful of times when the clocks were inaccurate because they caused you trouble, while forgetting the hundreds of times when they worked correctly. It absolutely is not availability bias, as demonstrated by the concrete data included in one of those links. But even if it were - the whole point of having those signs is to alert you about the actual state of the sub…

> wall of fucking text

repeat yourself until you're blue in the face, but you're wrong.

Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#53

Post by chimeracoder »

ng12 wrote: post #51
chimeracoder wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, it's almost surely a case of remembering the handful of times when the clocks were inaccurate because they caused you trouble, while forgetting the hundreds of times when they worked correctly. It absolutely is not availability bias, as demonstrated by the concrete data included in one of those links. But even if it were - the whole point of having those signs is to alert you about the actual state of the sub…

> * They only publish the scheduled times, not the actual estimated arrival times Do you have a source for this? I'm positively certain it's not true. I time my commute every morning with the online subway clock that matches exactly with the one in the station -- I leave my apartment when the Q is ~8m away and it always arrives shortly after I get to the platform. I've only encountered one situation where the clock w…

> I think you may be confusing the countdown clocks with the kiosks

No, I'm not. I know the difference between the kiosks and the overhead clocks.

> I simply don't believe that somebody could take the subway on a daily basis and think the countdown clocks are that inaccurate.

Benjamin Kabak, whom I linked above, has been covering the MTA and transit in New York for over a decade, in addition to being a daily subway rider. Offhand, I can't think of a single independent journalist who has more comprehensive knowledge of the minutiae of the NYC transit systems than he does, let alone a more established track record of documenting not only the visible problems, but the factors that create those problems. If that, combined with the other data provided, isn't convincing, I don't know what else could be.

Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#54

Post by ng12 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #53
ng12 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * They only publish the scheduled times, not the actual estimated arrival times Do you have a source for this? I'm positively certain it's not true. I time my commute every morning with the online subway clock that matches exactly with the one in the station -- I leave my apartment when the Q is ~8m away and it always arrives shortly after I get to the platform. I've only encountered one situation where the clock w…

> I think you may be confusing the countdown clocks with the kiosks No, I'm not. I know the difference between the kiosks and the overhead clocks. > I simply don't believe that somebody could take the subway on a daily basis and think the countdown clocks are that inaccurate. Benjamin Kabak, whom I linked above, has been covering the MTA and transit in New York for over a decade, in addition to being a daily subway r…

You haven't really provided any data. A few random tweets about incidents, only one about the countdown clocks where the next response offers a probable explanation.

You're trying to sell me on a different version of reality, here. You're telling me a system I rely on every single day is completely unreliable.

Do you live in NYC? Do you take the trains? Go put your theory to the test. Go sit at at a busy train station for 20m and watch the countdown clocks tick down until the train comes. I promise you'll be pleasantly surprised. The countdown clocks are just about the only part of the MTA system that works.

Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#55

Post by Maultasche »

dgellow wrote: post #23
probably_wrong wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German train system uses TTS in all stations to announce (among other things) delays and cancellations. Cancellations are usually followed by the phrase "we apologize". This has always been for me the most infuriating part: that the fakest of apologies was attached to it. In contrast, getting actual information about the delay works for me, precisely because it feels more honest.

Isn’t this “fake” politeness part of the German culture? I see it in everything related to business communication, from banks, insurances, public services, etc. Even from retail stores. That has been explained to me as being part of the etiquette for proper communication, which seems to be quite important in Germany, even if everybody I asked agreed that it was empty and meaningless.

When living in Germany, I found that the Germans were quite blunt in comparison to the United States and discarded a lot of the word fluff and fake friendliness that I often see people using in the United States. They prefer to be direct and get to the point. There was no need to beat around the bush and hint politely at something. So the attitude of getting rid of the meaningless words and stick directly to the information seems like a very German attitude to me.

However, I also found (particularly in written contexts) that the Germans were really big on formality. If you don't use their proper titles, they'll get very upset. If the paperwork doesn't have an official stamp on it, it's meaningless waste paper. If it does have an official stamp on it, then it's holy and undisputed, no matter what nonsense is written on it. I'm surprised that there isn't a flourishing fake official stamp black market because of the importance people place on those things.

I find that all the fluff in German written documents revolves around formality, rather than fake politeness. I always got the feeling that all those extra, meaningless words and phrases were more about doing it the proper, formal way (no matter how meaningless that was), whereas in the United States, the people are much more informal, but use a lot of fluff words to convey fake friendliness.

German academic writing is ridiculous. There's so much formality and academic vocabulary involved that they'll write long, complex sentences with fancy vocabulary to convey a simple concept. It's about as formal as you can possibly imagine, so it's wordiness and complexity has to compensate.

Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#56

Post by chimeracoder »

ng12 wrote: post #54
chimeracoder wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you may be confusing the countdown clocks with the kiosks No, I'm not. I know the difference between the kiosks and the overhead clocks. > I simply don't believe that somebody could take the subway on a daily basis and think the countdown clocks are that inaccurate. Benjamin Kabak, whom I linked above, has been covering the MTA and transit in New York for over a decade, in addition to being a daily subway r…

You haven't really provided any data. A few random tweets about incidents, only one about the countdown clocks where the next response offers a probable explanation. You're trying to sell me on a different version of reality, here. You're telling me a system I rely on every single day is completely unreliable. Do you live in NYC? Do you take the trains? Go put your theory to the test. Go sit at at a busy train statio…

> You're trying to sell me on a different version of reality, here.... Give the MTA their single, well-deserved victory. Put your theory for the test. Go sit at at a busy train station for 20m and watch the countdown clocks tick down until the train comes. I promise you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I'm not trying to sell you on anything. In fact, I'm not even interested in continuing this discussion. I've provided you with a reference to the most well-respected journalist covering the technical details of the MTA and NYC transit. If you're really interested in learning more, it's not hard to do some basic Googling and find their extensive coverage and analysis of this problem.

> Do you live in NYC? Do you take the trains? I'm so confused -- are you astroturfing for some reason?

Just because someone presents information that contradicts your anecdotal experience, that doesn't mean they're astroturfing. Though at this point, if you're going to start slinging bad-faith accusations with no basis, it's pretty clear this conversation is going nowhere.

Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#57

Post by workinfunk »

chimeracoder wrote: post #53
ng12 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * They only publish the scheduled times, not the actual estimated arrival times Do you have a source for this? I'm positively certain it's not true. I time my commute every morning with the online subway clock that matches exactly with the one in the station -- I leave my apartment when the Q is ~8m away and it always arrives shortly after I get to the platform. I've only encountered one situation where the clock w…

> I think you may be confusing the countdown clocks with the kiosks No, I'm not. I know the difference between the kiosks and the overhead clocks. > I simply don't believe that somebody could take the subway on a daily basis and think the countdown clocks are that inaccurate. Benjamin Kabak, whom I linked above, has been covering the MTA and transit in New York for over a decade, in addition to being a daily subway r…

Maybe you should hook up the worst metrics system in the world, veneur, and then see if it tells you any different.

Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#58

Post by ng12 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #56
ng12 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't really provided any data. A few random tweets about incidents, only one about the countdown clocks where the next response offers a probable explanation. You're trying to sell me on a different version of reality, here. You're telling me a system I rely on every single day is completely unreliable. Do you live in NYC? Do you take the trains? Go put your theory to the test. Go sit at at a busy train statio…

> You're trying to sell me on a different version of reality, here.... Give the MTA their single, well-deserved victory. Put your theory for the test. Go sit at at a busy train station for 20m and watch the countdown clocks tick down until the train comes. I promise you'll be pleasantly surprised. I'm not trying to sell you on anything. In fact, I'm not even interested in continuing this discussion. I've provided you…

> it's pretty clear this conversation is going nowhere.

Yes, obviously, because you keep saying "look at the data" while providing none of relevance. Nobody's arguing that the MTA is rife with delays and poor planning, we're talking about the countdown clocks specifically.

The countdown clocks do not show the scheduled time. They use Bluetooth receivers to physically track the trains [1]. Your fundamental premise is wrong.

I'm honestly curious -- do you Uber everywhere? How often do you take the train?

1. http://www.thetransitwire.com/2017/09/01/mta-uses-bluetooth-...

Re: Don’t Hate Her, She’s Just the (Subway) Messenger

#59

Post by jefnwk »

grkvlt wrote: post #49
JackCh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about train station displays, not arbitrary displays. Nobody has ever done word processing on a split-flap display so obviously I'm talking about a restricted domain. They don't need to display arbitrary information and the range of information they need to display rarely changes since that typically involves construction. The noise, an unintentional consequence of the mechanism, provides utility to tra…

> Nobody has ever done word processing on a split-flap display You say that, but I'd be willing to bet that this guy has: https://scottbez1.github.io/splitflap/

Oat Foundry Split Flap displays do real-time typing, real-time display of 3rd party data, and oh so much more.
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