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How to get kids to pay attention

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Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#251

I and my wife discuss programming matters in front of our kids. And my kids listen to the discussions and want to be part of it. Then I start teaching the basics, they are a bit more willing to hear. Here the incentive for them is to be part of the club where interesting things are happening. We laugh at coding jokes which kids don't appear to understand which leaves them confused. So, it seems they are aware they la…

Thanks for an idea. As part of developing a rough-quantitative feel for physical properties, I like associating measures with real-life adult-world examples. Eg, a Newton-meter torque is reopening a 2L plastic soda bottle.[1] But my mindset was 'make the associations transparent and low-barrier', and do 'number->example, to allow easily exploring the measure space"'. But what if there was more mystery, struggle, challenge, tease? An adaptively tuned barrier.

Instead of 'touching a thermometer scale at some temperature instantly yields a video about making chocolate', or a video clip of a tv news weather report, what if instead a video had temperatures bleeped/blurred out, and required an act of effort - "give me the temperature, d*mnit! it should be around here somewhere...". Then maybe related videos (of similar temperature or topic) aren't just more surfing, but payoff? An unlocking. "Ohhh, change the temperature of that step and you get a different kind of chocolate!"

Maybe a little animated critter that watches videos with you, and cheers for temperatures, or jumps on them, and sometimes makes it so you cant hear/see them, unless you shush the critter, or move it.

Anyway, random brainstorming - I'm exploring maybe doing a temperature education app. Thanks for your comment.

[1] http://www.clarifyscience.info/part/ZoomB?v=A&p=CK6Ji&m=torq...

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP but I read it as prohibition of the autonomy (of children by today's culture) that they used to have. I can relate, as a child I was expected to be self-sufficient in a way that would be unrecognisable to modern children. Rather than being ferried by car to the school, and taxied to a series of child appointments, I walked to school alone or with friends. That including crossing a 4 lane highway, at the lights…

I grew up with much the same freedom: in small town Iowa, the school bus was for kids 20 miles away. My street would join the larger neighborhood's kids for the 5 mile walk to and from everyday, rain, thunderstorms, winter snow storm or not. If snow was really bad, dads with snowmobiles would ferry the kids, pulling trains of sleds. Rain was okay, no matter how hard. After school, the "bike gangs" of kids would be ro…

> Now it is just another generica in the US corporate sameland, with the original Iowa Natives unable to understand what happened to their culture.

Is this a very cleverly disguised allegory for the loss of indigenous culture by invading hordes, descended from Europeans who settled the coast of what is now the United States? Do you actually consider small town mid-20th century midwestern US culture to be the culture of the "original Iowa Natives"?

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#253
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate, I was born/grew up overseas and was raised this way before my parents moved back to the states. I moved back with them, and it was surprising how little my friends had in life skills. I had learned to cook (from watching/learning) already and would cook for myself after school for example, while most of my friends would have zero ideas on what to do. It's sad how the U.S. Government prevents native Amer…

>There's a cultural vibe of individualism [where?] preventing overwatch of kids [whose kids?] by adults which has led, in part, to the prohibitive [prohibiting what?] autonomy that I had as a kid. I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but I'm genuinely interested. Could you clarify? Active listening: What I thought you said is that in, say, the Philippines, there is a culture of individualism that prevent…

I appreciate the active listening, it's close, let me clarify a bit.

There are two major cultural ideas, cultures of individualism [0] and cultures of collectivism [1], that I vaguely pointed out. They're not exclusive but you don't always notice them intertwined together often. In my experience, the Philippines, had both cultures but usually led with a dominance of collectivism. I had autonomy [4], much like the article, to make my own decisions that were un-coerced. That wasn't to say that my parents didn't parent, or that individuals would watch over me where ever I was. In example, I would wander a mall (273k m²~ in size) as a 6-10 year-old kid and when my parents wanted to find me they would look at the shop keepers which would point in the direction I went. I remember chatting with different store keepers like it was normal. That leads me back to the idea of collectivism. I had tons of "uncles" and "aunts" (mostly local college students) which would collectively parent me, but I also had people I barely knew who would watch out for me. There was a construction site next to my parent's house which I would often visit. Those guys would obviously watch out for my safety but when I visited during their breaks they would talk to me, ask how my day was, what I was up to -- small talk. I also lived in post-Soviet bloc Poland, it was a similar experience.

In the United States, when we visited and ultimately moved there it was extremely different for the most part. I had walked not even a quarter mile to a local barbershop in Huntsville, Alabama before I got stopped by police asking where my parents were. I never once had that experience overseas. There was also a cafe, local bookstore, a few restaurants, and a few other shops on that block.

Eventually, it got to the point where my parents took away the majority of my autonomy to go places because of Child Protective Services (CPS). It fell into a few categories but the two big ones were: the hype over stranger danger and the issue of perceived safety of myself by the U.S. Government. I do want to admit that my experience, which has shaped my opinion, would be different if I had lived in Rural America. CPS can be a terrible organization to work with because they're overworked leading to snap decisions rather than understanding the context. I've heard horror stories from friends over the years of the stuff that organization does because the government has the "best interest" for everyone in every situation (one of those friends was a Parent Advocate for the local Public Defenders Office). Also, if you need another example, look at ICE.

On Individualism in America, when was the last time you saw a stranger interact and correct/parent another person's kid in a grocery store. Swizec and NeedMoreTea had a great summary too:

NeedMoreTea [2]

> The individualism of today's adults all around has led to them ignoring, or putting up with the excesses of, everyone else's kids. Few would dare say anything, and would probably get a torrent of abuse from the parent if they did.

> The over-hype of abuse and stranger danger hasn't helped either - serious things, but not exactly as common as the media imply. Adult males have double the reason not to speak to or tell off someone's child.

Swizec [3]

> My interpreta is that in many other countries there is a sense of collectivism in that everyone takes care of children and collaborates a little bit. If you see a kid, you don’t think something must be wrong, you lend assistance to their parents by being an impromptu guardian and help the kid achieve their means.

> Whereas in the US the modus operandi is “Well it’s not my kid what do I care? Their parents must be terrible people for not standing right next to them”

> For example, as a 7 year old in eastern-ish europe, I would walk 1km to school on my own every morning. The worst that ever happened was when me and a friend decided that umbrellas ar[e] the perfect snow shovel.

Hopefully, that provides a bit more clarity for everyone.

Edit: formatting.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17437151

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17437088

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy && https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy#Child_development

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#254
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I'm glorifying autonomy in relation to self-determination theory but critiquing individualism as a cultural ideology or orientation. I used different words because I wasn't expecting a response like yours. If you want a deep dive, this is a good paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12518973

Could you explain your distinction in plain English? Virtually nobody on this planet is entitled to read your source without shelling out a nontrivial amount of money, you haven't given a "shallow dive", so I have no interest in a deep one. I can accept that you make a distinction, but to me the beginning and end of individualism is respect for individual autonomy , and I suspect that a lot of English literates would…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17443985

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#255
post #109

I have 6 kids, and I've found it's pretty simple to get kids to pay attention (or anything else). Be consistent, and willing to discipline if necessary. Here's the order I follow: 1. Polite request 2. Polite command 3. Stern command 4. Warning 5. Push-ups 6. Spanking They know I love them and because of that love obedience is required. Situations rarely escalate past step 2, and step 6 is memorable. ETA: for anything…

> no matter what they confess, they will NOT receive punishment. I want them to learn by reflection. this is interesting, i will try this.

As a child there were many times were I'd rather my dad give me a good spanking than to talk with my mom. It's brutal when parents ask you in a soft voice to explain why you did a bad/stupid thing, and most of the time you are just a dumb kid, there was no real reason or thinking behind it :D

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Thousands (tends/hundreds of thousands?) of years of human society isn't going to just evaporate from a couple studies, even if they're incontrovertible.

Do you understand the post hoc fallacy?

I am not arguing that corporal punishment is effective because society has progressed. I'm saying that people are inflexible and even irrefutable science is unlikely to cause an immediate societal shift.

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#257
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate, I was born/grew up overseas and was raised this way before my parents moved back to the states. I moved back with them, and it was surprising how little my friends had in life skills. I had learned to cook (from watching/learning) already and would cook for myself after school for example, while most of my friends would have zero ideas on what to do. It's sad how the U.S. Government prevents native Amer…

>There's a cultural vibe of individualism [where?] preventing overwatch of kids [whose kids?] by adults which has led, in part, to the prohibitive [prohibiting what?] autonomy that I had as a kid. I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but I'm genuinely interested. Could you clarify? Active listening: What I thought you said is that in, say, the Philippines, there is a culture of individualism that prevent…

The article "Letting Kids Light Matches and 9 other seemingly scary things that German parents do" [1] provides the point of view of an American mother on parenting and schooling in Germany. (I can't check the link from France, hope it works.) Otherwise, it's all about Sara Zaske's book "Achtung Baby", anyway [2].

1. http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/parenting/sc-fam-ge...

2. https://sarazaske.com/upcoming-book-achtung-baby/

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you understand the post hoc fallacy?

I am not arguing that corporal punishment is effective because society has progressed. I'm saying that people are inflexible and even irrefutable science is unlikely to cause an immediate societal shift.

So your argument is that humans are feral? I don't think that's supported by the evidence either.

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not arguing that corporal punishment is effective because society has progressed. I'm saying that people are inflexible and even irrefutable science is unlikely to cause an immediate societal shift.

So your argument is that humans are feral? I don't think that's supported by the evidence either.

How in the world did you get "feral" from anything I'm saying?

Re: How to get kids to pay attention

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the entire point of the free market? To find the price that incentivizes the necessary level of production of a good/service? The alternative is a central authority setting prices, which has historically had disastrous results.

Well, in romantic theory, yes. But unfortunately, society doesn't value folks that clean toilets and folks that clean toilets need income to buy food, shelter, and other things. The balance of power seriously works against the person cleaning toilets, and they have no real power over the wages they are paid. The market forces that determine pay are more competition between folks that hire others to clean toilets. If…

If the supply of people able and willing to clean toilets is great compared to the demand for toilet cleaning service, the wage for toilet cleaners will be low.

We can redistribute profits from investors to low wage workers like the people who clean toilets, but the consequence of that is lower return on investment, and with it, lower rates of investment/economic-growth.

In the long, policies that lower economic growth rates are very detrimental to all classes of workers. What increases wages for people like toilet cleaners is high levels of production relative to population.

Investment is the mechanism by which we increase production, and profits are how 1. resources are distributed to those who are most effective at growing the economy's level of production 2. people are incentivized to invest to increase production.

There's no escaping economic laws, and no free lunch from policies that redistribute income from high income earners to low income earners.

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