High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos • Hacker News Board

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#11

Post by zzzcpan » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

SmooL wrote: post #2

I have to agree that this will be inevitable. Fake videos _will_ be created to spread misinformation. I bring you no solutions. Our best programmatic tool for these kinds of video analysis is currently the exact same technology that enables it in the first place. Furthermore, any neural network that can detect fake videos will only be used adversarially to train a better deep fake creator! The only solution I see is…

To make it feasible you don't need much, just journalists signing videos and uploading them somewhere besides publishing anywhere unsigned. This will make every unsigned video easily verifiable, just not with crypto.

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#12

Post by drivingmenuts » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

When this happens (not if), I expect it will play right into the current administration's habit of dismissing anything that disagrees as fake news. For the administration that follows? Who knows? I only have evidence for right now.

I do think most of it will come from people lower down the political food chain (the meme creators, etc) who seek to convince others of their POV out of desperation and/or maliciousness.

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#13

Post by germinalphrase » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

creaghpatr wrote: post #8

craftyguy wrote: post #3

I'd be more concerned with US officials using this technology to indict innocent people who disagree with them. Being able to conjure up a confession for anything by anyone is extremely powerful, given that the alternatives to accomplish the same thing today are basically apprehension and torture/threats.

>Being able to conjure up a confession for anything by anyone is extremely powerful Being able to dismiss credible video evidence as 'deepfake' is equally powerful. In any case, it would be extremely risky to hang a case on a single confession video that the accused claims is fake, given the current pattern of prosecution the DOJ would never bring that case; it would be embarrassing in the public eye and probably ove…

Garry Kasparov has often accused V. Putin of maintaining his public influence by successfully attacking the idea that a verifiable truth can be established about his/oligarchical misdeeds. Surely, there are techniques to make educated assessments about the probability that [this] happened rather than [that] - but the public at large is neither literate in statistics nor receptive to uncertainty.

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#14

Post by elcritch » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #3

I'd be more concerned with US officials using this technology to indict innocent people who disagree with them. Being able to conjure up a confession for anything by anyone is extremely powerful, given that the alternatives to accomplish the same thing today are basically apprehension and torture/threats.

Never thought of that angle. Now a strong social system would be resilient to either such attacks at large. Either by passing new laws, having crypto signed recording devices, strong judiciary etc for personal allegations. For the broad political discourse a robust societal framework would rebuff a lot of foreign attacks by their foreigners. Alas I’m not sure the US currently is in such a healthy state. You have to know and communicate with your neighbors for that.

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#15

Post by zzzcpan » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

bytematic wrote: post #4

SmooL wrote: post #2

I have to agree that this will be inevitable. Fake videos _will_ be created to spread misinformation. I bring you no solutions. Our best programmatic tool for these kinds of video analysis is currently the exact same technology that enables it in the first place. Furthermore, any neural network that can detect fake videos will only be used adversarially to train a better deep fake creator! The only solution I see is…

Can we develop something to put in videos that are real? Maybe something built into the software or maybe even some icon you have to hold up behind someone like the president to at least make deepfakes difficult/impossible? Just spit-balling as I also see no point in video analysis

We already have developed something. Only thing missing now is cultural shift in the media to apply a little bit of effort into signing videos.

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#16

Post by binarymax » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

zzzcpan wrote: post #11

SmooL wrote: post #2

I have to agree that this will be inevitable. Fake videos _will_ be created to spread misinformation. I bring you no solutions. Our best programmatic tool for these kinds of video analysis is currently the exact same technology that enables it in the first place. Furthermore, any neural network that can detect fake videos will only be used adversarially to train a better deep fake creator! The only solution I see is…

To make it feasible you don't need much, just journalists signing videos and uploading them somewhere besides publishing anywhere unsigned. This will make every unsigned video easily verifiable, just not with crypto.

That's fine for journalists, but does nothing to prevent fakes captured by the populace. A good deal of our journalism now is by on scene witnesses. What can we do about fakes posted on social media purported to be the real capture of some scandal or event?

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#17

Post by zkascak » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

mgraybosch wrote: post #9

You should never trust digital media. You should be extremely selective about what analog media you trust. If you weren't there to see it happen yourself, all you've got to go on is somebody else's perception. Be careful who you trust.

As a filmmaker I feel that completely distrusting a medium just because it is digital might be a little harsh.

I think that we may want to consider using cryptographic signature methods as a way to mark materials as coming from the source they claim to be from. Though this is not a perfect solution.

Though I still work with analog film, though it is becoming more and more cost prohibitive everyday. Analog can just as easily be altered. If you looked at a silver gelatin print, if the printmaker was talented you probably would never be able to detect the changes to the image that were made during the printing process. Is the resulting image a fake, or is it just an artists vision?

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#18

Post by 21 » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

zzzcpan wrote: post #11

SmooL wrote: post #2

I have to agree that this will be inevitable. Fake videos _will_ be created to spread misinformation. I bring you no solutions. Our best programmatic tool for these kinds of video analysis is currently the exact same technology that enables it in the first place. Furthermore, any neural network that can detect fake videos will only be used adversarially to train a better deep fake creator! The only solution I see is…

To make it feasible you don't need much, just journalists signing videos and uploading them somewhere besides publishing anywhere unsigned. This will make every unsigned video easily verifiable, just not with crypto.

In the last years there have been quite a few cases of journalists resigning from very prestigious publications (NYT, ...) because they were caught fabricating news.

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#19

Post by segmondy » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

Anyone know where deepfakes moved to? It was great seeing what was going on in /r/deepfakes but due to the "offensive nature" of some of the videos that subreddit was killed. Anyone know the best place to watch and observe the latest happenings in the scene?

Re: High-tech deception of ‘deepfake’ videos

#20

Post by fooey » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

binarymax wrote: post #16

zzzcpan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make it feasible you don't need much, just journalists signing videos and uploading them somewhere besides publishing anywhere unsigned. This will make every unsigned video easily verifiable, just not with crypto.

That's fine for journalists, but does nothing to prevent fakes captured by the populace. A good deal of our journalism now is by on scene witnesses. What can we do about fakes posted on social media purported to be the real capture of some scandal or event?

I think what we'll see is something less like the Jordan Peele version of Obama based on a public clip, and something more like a faked version of the Romney 47% video

Start with something naturally unfocused and exists only as a one off original, and it would be extremely hard to disprove without comparing it to other video of the same event.