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The physics of baking good pizza

arxiv.org

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Re: The physics of baking good pizza

#91

Post by cosenal »

panabee wrote: post #83
chaosbutters314 wrote: post #42

This paper is so oversimplified. If you're actually curious in the physics of food, check out the journal of food engineering. We use much more complex physical models to simulate the physics of food. Fun note, this is my job and it is pretty cool to really dig into the science behind cooking and then apply that to an industrial scale.

this is very cool! 1) what's the most helpful physics-based cooking tip most people aren't aware of? 2) are there efforts in food engineering to apply machine learning to recipes in the same way some projects are trying to automate other creative functions like graphic design?

about 2) there is (was?) an effort by IBM to make an AI chef using techniques from cognitive computing. See https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/28/cooking-with-c...

Re: The physics of baking good pizza

#92

Post by toomanybeersies »

Arnt wrote: post #86
toomanybeersies wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've actually had some really good frozen pizzas. The best ones I ever had were actually $4 frozen pizzas from the supermarket that were made in Italy. I'm not sure how they made a pizza in Italy and shipped it to NZ and managed to sell it for $4, but they were great, or at least the quattro fromaggio ones were. The ones with any frozen vegetables like mushrooms were sort of crap, the mushrooms went all watery. In my…

Just a detail: That's bluewater shipping, which is unbelievably cheap these days if you have the right kind of load. Some of the modern ships carry a thousand containers per crew member. The cost of the crew, fuel and ship itself is spread over many containers, and if your load has the right weight/volume ratio, you can negotiate extra low rates.

I just find it so fascinating that it can be cheaper to ship things from Europe than make them locally, even if logically I know that it makes sense.

As another example: the budget branded fries that I brought for $2 for a kg came from the Netherlands. Not only was I amazed that it was cheaper than locally made fries, but that was cheaper than I could buy fresh potatoes.

Somehow it's cheaper to grow potatoes, cut them up, package them, and ship them to New Zealand, than it is to grow potatoes in New Zealand and drive them to the supermarket.

Looking at ballpark estimates, potato chips weigh about 500 kg/m^3 [1], meaning you can fit 27 t in a shipping container [2] with some space left over, as 27 t is the maximum weight for a 40 ft container. This would cost around $4,500 to ship from Rotterdam to Auckland in a refrigerated container [3].

So per 1 kg packet, you're looking $0.17 for shipping costs. That's pretty astoundingly low.

[1] http://www.mpd-inc.com/bulk-density/

[2] http://www.dsv.com/sea-freight/sea-container-description/dry...

[3] http://worldfreightrates.com/freight

Re: The physics of baking good pizza

#93

Post by Reason077 »

shaklee3 wrote: post #76
Obi_Juan_Kenobi wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good dough is easy: * Use bread flour * Let it sit refrigerated for a few days before use. 1-2 weeks is pretty ideal. Compared to a fresh dough, you'll get that nice crispy crust and chewy, flavorful interior.

1-2 weeks is far too long for a yeasted dough to sit in a refrigerator. 2-5 days would be the max.

I agree. 24-48 hours is the ideal refrigerator proofing time for pizza dough in my experience.

Too much beyond that the dough will break down too much, becoming gooey, tearing easily when handled, and resulting in a hard/crunchy crust.

Proofed dough balls can be frozen for storage, however. They keep well in the freezer and defrost quickly when needed.

Re: The physics of baking good pizza

#94

Post by unwind »

flukus wrote: post #41
toomanybeersies wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've actually had some really good frozen pizzas. The best ones I ever had were actually $4 frozen pizzas from the supermarket that were made in Italy. I'm not sure how they made a pizza in Italy and shipped it to NZ and managed to sell it for $4, but they were great, or at least the quattro fromaggio ones were. The ones with any frozen vegetables like mushrooms were sort of crap, the mushrooms went all watery. In my…

ALDI has some really good ones for $3AU too, the supreme ones (basically ham, cheese and capsicum if that counts as supreme) anyway. I cook from frozen normally, but for a really "gourmet" frozen pizza experience defrost is completely and stick it under the grill. Wonderful grilled cheese on top and still a soft fluffy base underneath.

Uh, off-topic but as a non-native speaker, is that use of "capsicum" standard? Where are you located?

I had to look it up to make sure you meant (US: bell) peppers.

Re: The physics of baking good pizza

#96

Post by amelius »

chaosbutters314 wrote: post #42

This paper is so oversimplified. If you're actually curious in the physics of food, check out the journal of food engineering. We use much more complex physical models to simulate the physics of food. Fun note, this is my job and it is pretty cool to really dig into the science behind cooking and then apply that to an industrial scale.

What is the most prominent journal for this field?

Re: The physics of baking good pizza

#98

Post by GCA10 »

Upvoted simply because of this very entertaining explanation of variations in heat transfer rates. The authors set up a theoretical "mom" touching a child's forehead to gauge temperature . . . and then go to town!

"Let us assume that your mother’s head is made of steel, and her temperature is the same: 36°С. Intuitively, it is clear the temperature at the interface will decrease, let us say, to 36.3°С."

Re: The physics of baking good pizza

#99

Post by flukus »

unwind wrote: post #94
flukus wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ALDI has some really good ones for $3AU too, the supreme ones (basically ham, cheese and capsicum if that counts as supreme) anyway. I cook from frozen normally, but for a really "gourmet" frozen pizza experience defrost is completely and stick it under the grill. Wonderful grilled cheese on top and still a soft fluffy base underneath.

Uh, off-topic but as a non-native speaker, is that use of "capsicum" standard? Where are you located? I had to look it up to make sure you meant (US: bell) peppers.

Capsicum is the standard name in here (Australia) from wikipedia:

>The large, mild form is called bell pepper, or by color or both in North America and the United Kingdom, but typically called capsicum in New Zealand,[8] Australia, South Africa, Singapore, and India.

It does seem strange that even anglosphere countries in the eastern hemisphere ended up with a different name for some reason. Presumably it was also called that in the UK at some point too.

Re: The physics of baking good pizza

#100

Post by CannisterFlux »

dopeboy wrote: post #80

Long time pizza enthusiast here. I've just gotten into the pursuit of making Neapolitan pizza after buying a pizza oven. I'm still coming up short and would love some tips. I've documented more on my blog but I'm still getting wrinkles, uneven leopard patterning, and stiff edges on the crust. [0] - http://dopeboy.github.io/roccbox-pizza/

Now I'm no expert, and make my pizzas in a conventional oven, but I'd look at the dough recipe first. The one you link to is:

    20 ounces (about 4 cups) bread flour, preferably Italian-style "OO"
    .4 ounces kosher salt (about 4 teaspoons)
    .3 ounces (about 2 teaspoons) instant yeast, such as SAF Instant Yeast
    13 ounces water
That's maybe too much salt IMO and maybe a touch dry. 20 oz is 566 g and that's 65% water. I usually make a pizza with 200g flour, 140ml water (70%), and less than a quarter of a teaspoon of salt. Also if you add the salt at the start it will kill the yeast a little. I mix flour, yeast and water first, let it stand for a minute then add the salt at the end. I make New York style pizzas so I also add a spoon of olive oil at this point too or the result is too crunchy.

I was somewhat "inspired" to add more water by the Bonci recipe http://www.elizabethminchilli.com/2011/01/making-pizza-dough... and to reduce the salt by an Italian guy at work.

It depends on the yeast you use too I guess. You have to test out what works best for your ingredients. Don't be afraid to play around with time, leave it in the fridge for a day or more, take it out 1, 2, 3 hours before cooking. Add more or less water... experiment with the ingredients you use. For the longest time I was over-proofing the dough, it would often become a gassy soggy mess that was impossible to work with. I'd usually have to re-work it and it'd lose all the bubbles. I found that making the dough after breakfast, leaving it in the fridge all day and taking it out an hour before I was ready to bake it made it perfect.

I'm dead jealous of your oven BTW. I'd love to have a good pizza oven, but in a small flat where every inch counts it seems like an impractical luxury :-)

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