Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know if this is true, but higher liquidity and lower spreads reduces the cost of every trade, which is money in the pockets of retail and value investors. I assume this is why Vanguard says HFT has been helpful for them (despite the fact that they don't do HFT themselves).
Aren't the cost of the trade and price of the trade two different things? Tighter spreads can only do so much to offset disadvantageous pricing, right?
Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
111–120 of 143 posts
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#112"So-called high frequency trading firms place trades in a fraction of a second, sometimes in a bet that they can move faster than bigger competitors." First off: no. Big money plays in high frequency trading (roughly half of all trading activity), and the smaller traders without instantaneous access are the losers in this game. Secondly, NASDAQ's obsession with precise global sequencing is A) misguided and B) effecti…
People who participate directly on the main market then effectively loose out, since you are doing your order blind in the future while other people on the secondary market are trading real-time and have more information than you at the close of the 1 second window.
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#113"So-called high frequency trading firms place trades in a fraction of a second, sometimes in a bet that they can move faster than bigger competitors." First off: no. Big money plays in high frequency trading (roughly half of all trading activity), and the smaller traders without instantaneous access are the losers in this game. Secondly, NASDAQ's obsession with precise global sequencing is A) misguided and B) effecti…
Bear in mind that exchanges are owned by the companies that trade on them - they've got a VERY strong vested interest in not fixing the problem. HFT works because fast traders can see a buy and sell order that are a distance apart, buy from the seller, then immediately offer to sell it at a fractionally higher price. Because they can see the buy order at all times, they know they can sell what they've just bought and…
You mean they didn't accidentally trade on IEX? That's not surprising.
Also, I would believe that if you're doing pure latency arb, then trading on IEX isn't profitable, but there are other high-frequency strategies besides pure latency arb. Are you restricting your definition of HFT to pure latency arb strategies?
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm a slow trader -- a few trades a year. I like, or at least don't mind, HFT. It certainly doesn't hurt liquidity. There is, in principle, always someone who wants to trade with me, and the increased volume may make price-discovery a little more accurate. When I place a limit order, I don't mind at all if someone has managed to front-run my order and sell it to me at the price I set. I got the thing I wanted to buy…
I'm pretty sure you misunderstand market orders because by definition they are only visible to the market after they have traded, so nobody can get ahead of you or do sonething irrational before your order lands. I would agree that market orders are a bad idea at any meaningful volume (outaide of retail sizes) because of liquidity and routing reasons
Have you read Flash Boys? Dunno if the loop-holes have all been solved, but basically it was possible to front-run orders. There was a regulation requiring brokers to execute an order on the exchange that had the best current price. This rule gave no weight to size. So HFT firms could place a tiny, negative expectancy order on one exchange. Then they could see the result of that trade and cancel/place orders on the next exchange that your broker's matching algorithm was going to hit up before your order got there.
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#115"So-called high frequency trading firms place trades in a fraction of a second, sometimes in a bet that they can move faster than bigger competitors." First off: no. Big money plays in high frequency trading (roughly half of all trading activity), and the smaller traders without instantaneous access are the losers in this game. Secondly, NASDAQ's obsession with precise global sequencing is A) misguided and B) effecti…
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm pretty sure you misunderstand market orders because by definition they are only visible to the market after they have traded, so nobody can get ahead of you or do sonething irrational before your order lands. I would agree that market orders are a bad idea at any meaningful volume (outaide of retail sizes) because of liquidity and routing reasons
> I'm pretty sure you misunderstand market orders because by definition they are only visible to the market after they have traded, so nobody can get ahead of you or do sonething irrational before your order lands. Have you read Flash Boys? Dunno if the loop-holes have all been solved, but basically it was possible to front-run orders. There was a regulation requiring brokers to execute an order on the exchange that…
What a broker does has nothing to do with how market orders work. The strategy you're describing also doesn't really work because any respectable broker is sweeping all of the exchanges at once - the regulations considered this possibility and allowed this behavior. Also, many of the liquid symbols have single cent spreads making this strategy impossible.
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm pretty sure you misunderstand market orders because by definition they are only visible to the market after they have traded, so nobody can get ahead of you or do sonething irrational before your order lands. Have you read Flash Boys? Dunno if the loop-holes have all been solved, but basically it was possible to front-run orders. There was a regulation requiring brokers to execute an order on the exchange that…
Yes, I work in the industry. Flash boys is misleading garbage, it's a long form advertisement for IEX. What a broker does has nothing to do with how market orders work. The strategy you're describing also doesn't really work because any respectable broker is sweeping all of the exchanges at once - the regulations considered this possibility and allowed this behavior. Also, many of the liquid symbols have single cent…
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#118"So-called high frequency trading firms place trades in a fraction of a second, sometimes in a bet that they can move faster than bigger competitors." First off: no. Big money plays in high frequency trading (roughly half of all trading activity), and the smaller traders without instantaneous access are the losers in this game. Secondly, NASDAQ's obsession with precise global sequencing is A) misguided and B) effecti…
Interesting idea, but how would you deal with these issues: 1.) Randomizing who receives contentious trades will just encourage order splitting and gaming. Sure some of that can be banned, but nothing stops big firms from putting each trading group into different legal entities or other tricks. This also discourages traders from bidding their true most aggressive price. In time priority, you must, or someone else wil…
2) I agree that the real world is quantized, but I think that a settlement tock to the bidding tick could be used to reduce the value of proximity. IEX actually implemented general latency with long runs of fiber, which is a really elegant fix. They couldn't make the rest of the world latent, so it's something like 700 microseconds, enough to remove colocation advantages, but only enough to solve for New York.
3) As far as I know, HFT's like to play in limit order and derivative books. It's where practices like flashing and spoofing have come from. Market orders are fraught with peril, especially if you don't know the matching rules for the exchange. As far as tightening the spread and aiding price discovery, I don't think that those two things are the same. If a security has naturally low volume, responsive high frequency trading can effectively be predatory.
4) I agree that there is more to HFT than just speed, but I view high frequency temporal arbitrage as an unnecessary market feature that provides the illusion of liquidity right up until that liquidity would truly be useful (since robots get benched when things go strange).
Granted, the temporal steps that I'm advocating here are a little provocative. The US could be solved in something like 200ms, and larger global markets, like currency exchange, are already fairly decentralized (though not as much as they used to be, as far as I know).
Either way, I don't think that NASDAQ can assure global temporal coherence, especially without controlling the entire network. Given that, it makes sense to design robust systems that don't pivot into rare modalities in exceptional cases. Just pull clock slew off the board.
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#119"So-called high frequency trading firms place trades in a fraction of a second, sometimes in a bet that they can move faster than bigger competitors." First off: no. Big money plays in high frequency trading (roughly half of all trading activity), and the smaller traders without instantaneous access are the losers in this game. Secondly, NASDAQ's obsession with precise global sequencing is A) misguided and B) effecti…
Most HFT shops are relatively small. HFT is all about latency and turn over. Big quant shops might have HFT elements but lean far more towards systematic/algo strategies that can be relatively high latency (still super low latency, but not HFT) because these are the only strategies that you can deploy serious var with. The guys crushing HFT are not huge hedge funds, and they are solving more engineering problems than…
Re: Google and Nasdaq Pursuing Nano-Second Precision in Network Time Protocol
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm pretty sure you misunderstand market orders because by definition they are only visible to the market after they have traded, so nobody can get ahead of you or do sonething irrational before your order lands. Have you read Flash Boys? Dunno if the loop-holes have all been solved, but basically it was possible to front-run orders. There was a regulation requiring brokers to execute an order on the exchange that…
Yes, I work in the industry. Flash boys is misleading garbage, it's a long form advertisement for IEX. What a broker does has nothing to do with how market orders work. The strategy you're describing also doesn't really work because any respectable broker is sweeping all of the exchanges at once - the regulations considered this possibility and allowed this behavior. Also, many of the liquid symbols have single cent…
A market order submitted to a single exchange isn't the same as a "market order" submitted to e.g. Fidelity.com. He's talking about the latter.