Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018? • Hacker News Board

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#21

Post by crote » Sun, Jul 01, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

For me, the primary argument of limiting column width is a very different one: If your code is very wide, you're probably doing something wrong, which means you should refactor your code

This "something" includes:

- Deeply indented (= nested) code

- Very large numbers of function arguments

- Overly-verbose naming

- The Train Wreck anti pattern

In my experience, 80 is indeed a bit limiting, especially in languages where you're basically forced to start 3 or 4 indentation levels deep, but anything beyond 120ish is usually a sign that you're doing something wrong.

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#22

Post by ezoe » Sun, Jul 01, 2018, 10:50 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #14

Did you ever wonder why magazines and newspapers use multiple columns? Because it's easier to read. When lines get too wide, it becomes harder to scan from the end of one line to the beginning of the next. There's solid science behind that, based on both physiology and observation of effects. For text, the recommendation is generally as low as 50 characters or as high as 75. Yes, reading code is a bit different, but…

As a generation who read text in flow layout from the start, multiple columns fixed layout is quite ugly, hard to read, shall be abolished from the world(especially academic world.)

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#23

Post by soneil » Sun, Jul 01, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #14

Did you ever wonder why magazines and newspapers use multiple columns? Because it's easier to read. When lines get too wide, it becomes harder to scan from the end of one line to the beginning of the next. There's solid science behind that, based on both physiology and observation of effects. For text, the recommendation is generally as low as 50 characters or as high as 75. Yes, reading code is a bit different, but…

Exactly - there's a good reason why this article, arguing that we have huge monitors now, is still constrained to a max-width that takes up 28% of my screen's width. And it's not because we're still designing for an 800x600 constraint.

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#24

Post by class4behavior » Sun, Jul 01, 2018, 11:19 PM UTC

ezoe wrote: post #22

notacoward wrote: post #14

Did you ever wonder why magazines and newspapers use multiple columns? Because it's easier to read. When lines get too wide, it becomes harder to scan from the end of one line to the beginning of the next. There's solid science behind that, based on both physiology and observation of effects. For text, the recommendation is generally as low as 50 characters or as high as 75. Yes, reading code is a bit different, but…

As a generation who read text in flow layout from the start, multiple columns fixed layout is quite ugly, hard to read, shall be abolished from the world(especially academic world.)

This arrangement exists because those are in paper format meant to be printed.

The argument in favor of narrow-width columns still stands. But we do indeed need to acknowledge that most people read on digital devices now.

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#25

Post by pliftkl » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 12:30 AM UTC

chronid wrote: post #4

With my current 1440p screen the only way I can keep two files open side to side without going blind is to limit myself to 80 characters, the screen linked in the article is 1080p and they propose to keep three files open at 120 column width? That won't really work for me. But maybe I'm getting old. :)

I'm 48, and I'm starting to crank up font sizes on my monitors. I can jam lots of tiny font on my monitor if I wear reading glasses, but I then end up much closer to the screen than I'd like.

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#26

Post by lokedhs » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 1:46 AM UTC

jstewartmobile wrote: post #20

If it's indented so deep to where " 80 or even 100 is too short ", it's time for some refactoring.

That depends heavily on the language used.

In Lisp you can have code blocks that are clearly independent units hanging 50 characters off to the right. A limit of 80 would limit the lines in the code block to 30 characters, which is not enough. Lisp tends to have pretty long function names, like multiple-value-bind or with-open-file.

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#27

Post by jstewartmobile » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

lokedhs wrote: post #26

jstewartmobile wrote: post #20

If it's indented so deep to where " 80 or even 100 is too short ", it's time for some refactoring.

That depends heavily on the language used. In Lisp you can have code blocks that are clearly independent units hanging 50 characters off to the right. A limit of 80 would limit the lines in the code block to 30 characters, which is not enough. Lisp tends to have pretty long function names, like multiple-value-bind or with-open-file.

I juggle most of the mainstream ones (including Clojure), and 80 isn't really causing any problems for me.

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#28

Post by crystalnewb » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

jkaplowitz wrote: post #8

crystalnewb wrote: post #2

We use 120 which seems to work fine even on small screens of about 11 inches.

120 on an 11 inch screen might be highly eyesight-dependent, especially if there is anything else on the screen at the same time. Not everyone worth hiring in the industry has optimal vision.

The font size and pretty much all settings for displays are highly dependent on eyesight.

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#29

Post by notacoward » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 1:25 PM UTC

class4behavior wrote: post #24

ezoe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a generation who read text in flow layout from the start, multiple columns fixed layout is quite ugly, hard to read, shall be abolished from the world(especially academic world.)

This arrangement exists because those are in paper format meant to be printed. The argument in favor of narrow-width columns still stands. But we do indeed need to acknowledge that most people read on digital devices now.

Why does it matter? Does the physiology of the human eye change when we're looking at a screen instead of paper? What is it about screens that suddenly makes it easier to saccade back to the beginning of the next line?

Re: Does Column Width of 80 Make Sense in 2018?

#30

Post by crystalnewb » Mon, Jul 02, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

d_ wrote: post #10

jkaplowitz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

120 on an 11 inch screen might be highly eyesight-dependent, especially if there is anything else on the screen at the same time. Not everyone worth hiring in the industry has optimal vision.

I just checked. I have a 17 inch laptop screen (uncommon and has to be sought for these days). To hit 120 characters on two terminals side-by-side requires 9pt font. That's definitely not something everyone can manage. I think 120 might even be pushing the limits of conscientiousness.

I was speaking of lines of code in a full screen text editor, I'm sure there are many programs that when displayed side by side on a small screen 120 chars would be too many. But let's avoid the strawman here. So 2 terminals side by side 120 chars each, you tried to display 240 per line in actuality? Do i have it right?