If product x has a backdoor, this backdoor will also be used by bad people. It can also be cracked and there will always be product y without a backdoor. Don't the legislators see this? Or are criminals statistically really that lazy that they will still use mobile phones even though they are compromised. According to "The Wire" they often even put extra layers of encryption security, anyway. Such behavior would make…
Wiretapping the Internet
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Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#12Conspiracy theory: Whoever is behind this doesn't really want every company to rewrite all their software with back doors. Instead, a 'reasonable' request will be substituted after the initial uproar.
The well-known negotiation technique of anchoring is all that theory is. It seems plausible to me.
Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#13Wiretapping - analog or digital - requires a judge's approval in this country. Sure, it can be abused. But do we in the IT world really want to be providing an untraceable means of communication for the next 9/11 bombers? Or, for that matter, white collar criminals, bank robbers, etc.?
To me providing checks and balances on the governments ability to snoop on civilians lives shouldn't be a technology arms race. It should be based on an engaged citizenry that keeps watch on its elected officials, making sure they are acting within the law.
Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#14I particularly like his analogy: "It's like the FBI demanding that no automobiles drive above 50 mph, so they can more easily pursue getaway cars. It might or might not work -- but, regardless, the cost to society of the resulting slowdown would be enormous."
You like the analogy because a speed limit of 50 would result in a decrease of fatalities due to car accidents? I guess that's what he meant with "cost to society" since IIRC more fatalities result in a higher gross national product.
The only increase in GDP that can be attributed to roadway accidents is due to the spending of medical care, which often times is loaned or from insurance, which is not a stable and reliable way to increase GDP over the long term. Overall, fatalities decrease GDP.
Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#15Conspiracy theory: Whoever is behind this doesn't really want every company to rewrite all their software with back doors. Instead, a 'reasonable' request will be substituted after the initial uproar.
That's no conspiracy theory. A conspiracy involves secret collaboration. The well-known negotiation technique of anchoring is all that theory is. It seems plausible to me.
I'd sure love to hear what Schneier thinks about it.
Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#16If product x has a backdoor, this backdoor will also be used by bad people. It can also be cracked and there will always be product y without a backdoor. Don't the legislators see this? Or are criminals statistically really that lazy that they will still use mobile phones even though they are compromised. According to "The Wire" they often even put extra layers of encryption security, anyway. Such behavior would make…
Are you taking about Season 1, crossing the fives?
SPOILER ALERT
Marlo (the drug lord) sent picture messages of a clock to arrange meetings. The hour and minute hands corresponded to the letter and number axes of a common Baltimore map and the second hand tells what page. The dealers would look up the coordinates on a map to find out where to meet. The cops broke it because they had (illegal) wiretaps on everyone's phones, and they had illegally allocated lots of extra manpower to tail all of the suspected drug dealers around the clock.
END SPOILER
Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#17All the government is asking for here is a continuation of the status quo. it's always had the ability to wiretap phones, but people don't use phones as much anymore - they use IM, Facebook, etc. to hatch their devious plots. Wiretapping - analog or digital - requires a judge's approval in this country. Sure, it can be abused. But do we in the IT world really want to be providing an untraceable means of communication…
Yes, we do.
Sometimes it is an inevitable consequence of the march of technological progress that certain legal and civil artifacts of previous eras must fall away, and we need to let that run its natural course, instead of trying to put up pointless and ineffectual -- but costly and frightening -- bureaucratic boondoggles in its way.
As various articles on the subject have pointed out, it's fundamentally antithetical to the decentralised core architecture of the Internet and the whole technology stack on which it is founded to have tap points like this, as if it had the hierarchical and highly centralised, despotic technical, political and economic properties of the public switched telephone network (PSTN).
There's no getting around the changes that it brings: unprecedentedly powerful encryption in the hands of ordinary consumers, complicated encapsulation and tunneling schemes, a great deal of indirection and ad-hoc, peer-to-peer negotiation. We will just have to live with the fact that secure end-to-end electronic communication that is not accessible by law enforcement are available to anyone who really wants it. For the most part, this is good news for privacy, civil rights and protection from information crime; in a few extremely marginal cases, like terrorist plotters and whatnot, this is bad, but we can't have our cake and eat it too. Trying to stop it in the manner proposed is a pointless waste of time.
But as we all know, these ideas can still exact crippling costs in money, time and energy when government imposes bureaucratic requirements, especially when they are so anachronistic (as they are, in this case) as to be instantly relegated to the realm of the symbolic. Nobody can realistically comply with the aims of this initiative, but depending on how far it goes, everyone will have to go through the motions of compliance, as we do with so many other narrowly conceived regulations thought up by idiot politicians that are wildly out of phase with actually-existing technical reality. It reminds me of the phrase "we pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us" from my native USSR.
As we repeatedly see, small companies have the most to lose, because they don't have nearly as much resources to sustain certain manifold illusions or charades that private business has to sustain in relation to the on-paper regulatory demands of innumerable government agencies and oversight bodies. When government dreams up something like CALEA, it's a lot like SOX; the amount of paper-pushing, slippery abstraction and byzantine process engineering in the resulting specification is something that, provided compliance to the letter is even logically possible, only big companies that operate processes on an enormous scale (and with enormous liquidity!) can stand implement. Everybody else, virtually by definition, is just too poor to play in the Big Boys' pond. It's still a meaningless boondoggle that doesn't actually accomplish anything concretely useful, but, for example, ILECs like AT&T, Verizon, Qwest, etc. can at least appear to comply.
It also paves the way to selective enforcement for purposes of extortion or official harassment, and the various other well-known consequences of making implausible laws.
Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#18This is the sort of thing that we get told will make my job easier. Take from the horse mouth; complete crap. Which is why you probably won't find anyone in the security or forensics business that thinks this is a good solution. One of my trainers told me something to me when I first started working on LE cases. He pointed out that catching criminals can only be made so easy before it becomes detrimental. And that po…
Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#19Conspiracy theory: Whoever is behind this doesn't really want every company to rewrite all their software with back doors. Instead, a 'reasonable' request will be substituted after the initial uproar.
That's no conspiracy theory. A conspiracy involves secret collaboration. The well-known negotiation technique of anchoring is all that theory is. It seems plausible to me.
Re: Wiretapping the Internet
#20All the government is asking for here is a continuation of the status quo. it's always had the ability to wiretap phones, but people don't use phones as much anymore - they use IM, Facebook, etc. to hatch their devious plots. Wiretapping - analog or digital - requires a judge's approval in this country. Sure, it can be abused. But do we in the IT world really want to be providing an untraceable means of communication…
No, this is not the case. Telephones are the exception.
Mail is legally protected every which-way. Obviously I'm free to encode something on a piece of paper and hand it to someone, or through a messenger.
But this proposal, at least as it's been reported, would force all communications to have a back door. No more passing encrypted notes.
do we in the IT world really want to be providing an untraceable means of communication
This is a straw man. Traceability doesn't enter into it. The gov't is asking for much more than a log of traffic. It's asking to see the content of the traffic.
It's also hyperbole. Until you can show that something as important as you're saying has actually used encryption, and that the inability to see inside the message would have averted the act, then you're just spinning FUD. There is currently no evidence that law enforcement is failing due to crypto.
Even if it were so, you'd still have to prove that the cost of those things that might be averted exceeds the costs to society from the loss of security.