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Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

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Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#141
post #92

Hacker News reading can be an especially pernicious and problematic addiction. Seriously, often in the startup world I find software engineers with TODO lists spanning space and time compulsively reading and scanning the HN front page. Oh, look: cannabis users addicted, dopamine rush. Altruistic punishment means an immediate boost to social status and opportunities for bonding. So who exactly is addicted to what agai…

Are you preoccupied by HN when you're doing something else? Do you seek HN when it's not available? Is using HN causing you harm but you continue to use it?

If you don't answer "yes" to each of these you're not "addicted" to HN.

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#142

Perhaps that is the case, but what bothers me is that these arguments are often put forth as an argument for continuing to use the criminal justice system to address the problem.

You can see a lot of public health campaigners who said "we shouldn't legalise until we have some form of treatment set up and we have agreement from sellers that they'll provide warnings".

And then some US states legalised, and they mostly don't have treatment and they mostly don't have any point of sale information about harm, and so those same people are asking why not.

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#143

In that entire article, the only definition of 'marijuana addiction' is a single sentence, and one that requires further clarification: > But in the public health and medical communities, it is a well-defined disorder that includes physical withdrawal symptoms, cravings and psychological dependence. Does anyone know what the specific criteria are for diagnosis? The rest of the article seems to be quotes from various…

Cannabis Use Disorder: https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/cannabis-use-disorder-d...

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According to the DSM-5, (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fifth edition) the criteria for Cannabis Use Disorder is as follows:

Use of cannabis for at least a one year period, with the presence of at least two of the following symptoms, accompanied by significant impairment of functioning and distress:

Difficulty containing use of cannabis- the drug is used in larger amounts and over a longer period than intended.

Repeated failed efforts to discontinue or reduce the amount of cannabis that is used

An inordinate amount of time is occupied acquiring, using, or recovering from the effects of cannabis.

Cravings or desires to use cannabis. This can include intrusive thoughts and images, and dreams about cannabis, or olfactory perceptions of the smell of cannabis, due to preoccupation with cannabis.

Continued use of cannabis despite adverse consequences from its use, such as criminal charges, ultimatums of abandonment from spouse/partner/friends, and poor productivity.

Other important activities in life, such as work, school, hygiene, and responsibility to family and friends are superseded by the desire to use cannabis.

Cannabis is used in contexts that are potentially dangerous, such as operating a motor vehicle.

Use of cannabis continues despite awareness of physical or psychological problems attributed to use- e.g., anergia, amotivation, chronic cough.

Tolerance to Cannabis, as defined by progressively larger amounts of cannabis are needed to obtain the psychoactive effect experienced when use first commenced, or, noticeably reduced effect of use of the same amount of cannabis

Withdrawal, defined as the typical withdrawal syndrome associate with cannabis, or cannabis or a similar substance is used to prevent withdrawal symptoms.

---end quote---

This is similar to substance misuse disorder.

https://www.verywellmind.com/dsm-5-criteria-for-substance-us...

---begin quote---

The DSM 5 recognizes substance-related disorders resulting from the use of 10 separate classes of drugs: alcohol; caffeine; cannabis; hallucinogens (phencyclidine or similarly acting arylcyclohexylamines, and other hallucinogens, such as LSD); inhalants; opioids; sedatives, hypnotics, or anxiolytics; stimulants (including amphetamine-type substances, cocaine, and other stimulants); tobacco; and other or unknown substances. Therefore, while some major groupings of psychoactive substances are specifically identified, the use of other or unknown substances can also form the basis of a substance-related or addictive disorder.

Substance use disorders span a wide variety of problems arising from substance use, and cover 11 different criteria:

Taking the substance in larger amounts or for longer than you're meant to.

Wanting to cut down or stop using the substance but not managing to.

Spending a lot of time getting, using, or recovering from use of the substance.

Cravings and urges to use the substance.

Not managing to do what you should at work, home, or school because of substance use.

Continuing to use, even when it causes problems in relationships.

Giving up important social, occupational, or recreational activities because of substance use.

Using substances again and again, even when it puts you in danger.

Continuing to use, even when you know you have a physical or psychological problem that could have been caused or made worse by the substance.

Needing more of the substance to get the effect you want (tolerance).

Development of withdrawal symptoms, which can be relieved by taking more of the substance.

---end quote---

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet with further research done properly (which will take decades starting now) we will find that pot use from an early age is not only correlated to diminished quality of life for some, but is a contributing underlying factor enough to tip scales for some. Michael Phelps can down McDonald’s but some are better off limiting their fast food intake. Everyone reacts differently to different arrangements of chemicals in…

None of this makes it physically addictive, which is the only issue I'm making. Mental addiction can also be terrible, and can cause the issues described.

WHy are you pushing the physical addiction point? Cocaine isn't physically addictive. Cocaine can be terribly harmful.

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that the use of marijuana actually inhibits dreams, and that people who quit temporarily experience intense dreams.

Yes. This isn't physical addiction. It can cause a mental addiction if you use it for that purpose, and the anxiety over going without can keep you awake. You see it in people with PTSD. edit Curious why people are objecting to this as I have personal experience in the area. Vivid dreams are common any time you go without dreaming for a while, it's not a sign of a physical addiction.

Because you're pushing a distinction (physical vs psychological addiction) that is mostly irrelevant but also untrue.

There are many drugs that aren't strongly physically addictive, but most people recognise that the misuse of those drugs can cause severe harm. Cannabis should be in this category.

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#146
post #6

Throwaway because obviously the stigma. But yes, it's very real. I am addicted to marijuana. I smoke nearly 3 grams a day; what has become a $1000+/month habit. I've always loved weed but the high salary has allowed me to lose control. I can't sleep or eat without it. Within 24 hours without weed I become an intolerable asshole who cannot eat or sleep. When I do sleep without it, it's full of nightmares and I wake up…

I’ve read a bit about addiction recently, particularly wrt social media’s manipulation of users, but the books I’ve read are full of references to other types of addiction.

One very effective piece of advice appears to be that the addiction and your environment become intertwined. If you’re serious about giving up, then a change of location, job, friends seems to greatly increase your chances of being successful.

It’s not just “don’t hang around pubs”, but also “live in a new apartment where you don’t have that fridge with the shelf you use for alcohol, that comfy chair where you drink at night.” Etc. Your environment becomes full of cues to continue your addiction, because you’ve associated it with the drug (or video games, etc.)

I think it’s easier for some people to be addicted than others, so don’t be too hard on yourself for being in that situation, and keep trying. Get professional help. Sincerely, good luck.

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#147
Here is some of the latest science, an invited review from the Journal of Neuroimmune Pharmacology. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11481-018-9782-...

Here is a good quote from the discussion portion of this review:

As described in the Koob and Volkow model (2016), most drugs of abuse result in the hyperactivation of the mesocorticolimbic dopaminergic reward pathway in the binge-intoxication stage of addiction. This hyperactivation seems to be present in cannabis addiction but to a lower extent. Acute THC administration elicits striatal DA release in animals (Bloomfield et al. 2016) and THC challenges were shown to increase striatal DA transmission in humans (Stokes et al. 2010; Bossong et al. 2015); although other studies have found no THC-induced increases in striatal DA (Barkus et al. 2011; Urban et al. 2012). Additionally, there are no baseline differences in dopamine D2/D3 receptor availability between cannabis users and healthy controls (Volkow et al. 2014c; van de Giessen et al. 2017), a finding that does not parallel addiction to other drugs of abuse (including cocaine, alcohol, methamphetamine, nicotine, or heroin) which is associated with substantial reductions in D2R availability in the ventral striatum (Wang et al. 1997; Volkow et al. 2001, 2014c, 2017c; Martinez et al. 2012; Albrecht et al. 2013; Tomasi et al. 2015a; Wiers et al. 2016a; Ashok et al. 2017). Nonetheless, as with other drugs of abuse, chronic cannabis use still results in blunted dopamine reactivity to a stimulant challenge (Volkow et al. 2014c; van de Giessen et al. 2017).

furthermore (CUD = Cannabis Use Disorder):

Interestingly, chronic cannabis use is associated with a downregulation of CB1R – THC’s target receptor – that is restored after 4 weeks of abstinence in humans (Hirvonen et al. 2012). This pattern of abstinence-induced changes in target receptor density is also seen after abstinence from other drugs of abuse such as heroin, stimulants, and alcohol (in humans and animals) but with some caveats: the changes found are not consistent across brain regions for every drug and abstinence periods are not congruent between studies (Wang et al. 2012; Seip-Cammack et al. 2013; Ashok et al. 2017; Volkow et al. 2017c). Future studies should examine to whether changes in target receptors after abstinence are comparable across brain regions and if they follow the same time course in CUD and other SUD.

Basically, Cannabis is a little addictive, maybe, and abstinence makes most people somewhat cranky and sleepless for a few days.

Personally, I've been a constant consumer for 25+ years, vape all day and grow my own. Quit a week before leaving for a three week international vacation that I'm almost done with, because I was intrigued by the 4 weeks of abstinence quote above. Not much in the way of sleeplessness or crankiness. Plenty of weird dreams though. Just like all my usual abstaining vacations and visits home, which usually don't last a month. YMMV.

IMHO the real addiction is buying seeds. I think I have enough in my fridge to last me the rest of my life :-(

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#148
post #140
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a challenge. Put all your stuff in a container, and put it on a shelf. Leave it there for a week, and don't use it. Every time you think about opening the container, write it down. I bet you'll think about opening the container a LOT more than you think will. Do you think you could make it to the end of the week? If not, you're addicted.

That's a useful experiment, but that's not what people mean when they talk about cannabis addiction. They mean that cannabis is having a profound harmful impact on the person's life, and the person cannot stop even though they recognise it's causing harm.

exactly. if I smoke every day and it does not have any impact on my life then it can't be called addiction.

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#149
post #142

Perhaps that is the case, but what bothers me is that these arguments are often put forth as an argument for continuing to use the criminal justice system to address the problem.

You can see a lot of public health campaigners who said "we shouldn't legalise until we have some form of treatment set up and we have agreement from sellers that they'll provide warnings". And then some US states legalised, and they mostly don't have treatment and they mostly don't have any point of sale information about harm, and so those same people are asking why not.

OK, but, again, the main alternative being proposed is locking people up for smoking weed, which is a funny way of helping them.

Re: Marijuana addiction is real, and rising

#150
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This isn't physical addiction. It can cause a mental addiction if you use it for that purpose, and the anxiety over going without can keep you awake. You see it in people with PTSD. edit Curious why people are objecting to this as I have personal experience in the area. Vivid dreams are common any time you go without dreaming for a while, it's not a sign of a physical addiction.

Because you're pushing a distinction (physical vs psychological addiction) that is mostly irrelevant but also untrue. There are many drugs that aren't strongly physically addictive, but most people recognise that the misuse of those drugs can cause severe harm. Cannabis should be in this category.

At no point do I suggest a mental addiction is less harmful, just that a distinction exists.

With a physical addiction, the substance itself becomes necessary to the body. A psychological addiction involves becoming reliant on a perceived effect of some other stimulus. If you give a brain dead person a physically addictive substance and then stop, they will suffer withdrawals while they can't develop a psychological addiction as there is no perception.

Generally, the two will develop together and both are harmful.

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