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Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

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Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#61

Post by rolandog »

woolvalley wrote: post #46
rolandog wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But doesn't that mean that it would be cheaper for an adversary to just wait until the excessive military spending makes the US implode, figuratively, in debt? This same concern worried former president Eisenhower back in his days[0]. A similar argument is usually touted regarding the economic strain that the 'Space Race' caused the U.S.S.R.[1]. [0] "The Cold War: An International History", p. 42-43 https://books.goo…

That only works if you can survive the overspend, because it's being used to actively destroy you at the moment.

Ah, ... I see they've cut back on the education and civility budgets to accommodate for more military spending.

Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#62

Post by ur-whale »

rixrax wrote: post #49
ur-whale wrote: post #14

"Most importantly, we have to change the culture of hardware design. Today, we don’t have open sharing … " This, to the 100th power. The culture in the EDA industry is stuck in the 1950's when it comes to collaboration and sharing, it's very frustrating for newcomers and people who want to learn the trade. As was pointed out by someone in another hardware related HN thread, what can you expect from an industry that i…

>> "Most importantly, we have to change the culture of hardware design. Today, we don’t have open sharing … " I'll have popcorn ready for the eventuality where IP blocks are widely available under GPL type of FOSS licenses and Intel|AMD|ARM|TI|... is eventually found to include one or more of those open sourced blocks with incompatible license in their chips.

The exact same arguments have been perused ad nauseam by old-timers in the software industry in the 80's and 90's when they clamored against open-source being anti-capitalist and un-american. Not sure how and why H/W is different.

Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#63

Post by GW150914 »

v_lisivka wrote: post #55
vkou wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US military is, in any serious way, going toe-to-toe with Russian/Chinese bombers, I hope you've got your fallout shelter stocked, because as likely as not, both sides in the conflict will cease to exist ~20 minutes after that point in time.

Ukraine is still alive after 4 years of war with Russia. Relax.

They’re at war with Russia because they gave up their nuclear weapons. No one is invading a nuclear power, which I think is the point the post you’re responding to was making.

Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#64

Post by TomVDB »

petra wrote: post #24

I see many chip vendors on the list of participating companies. Won't this project reduce barriers to entry for their industry ? and if so, isn't it against their interests to participate?

The participating companies makes chips that requires a huge amount of resources to make them happen: design engineering time, CAD software, tape-out cost, validation engineering time, ...

The CAD software is expensive, but it's not barrier of entry expensive compared to design engineering time, tape-out cost etc.

If the CAD software cost gets reduced, it would result in a cost reduction of all companies involved while still having a barrier of entries that's be way too high for anyone but the best funded companies.

Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#65

Post by civilitty »

mips_avatar wrote: post #38
wcrichton wrote: post #30

My advisor at Stanford is working on an open-source hardware toolchain to solve these exact problems. The Agile Hardware Center is trying to bring software methodologies of rapid prototyping and pervasive code sharing/reuse to ASICs, CGRAs, and FPGAs: https://aha.stanford.edu/

Any tips on getting started with FPGA on custom pcbs?

What exactly do you mean by "getting started with FPGA on custom PCBs?" Have you made custom PCBs with high density BGAs before? Most non-trivial FPGAs (to me that means you can easily fit a decent softcore processor with space left over for your FPGA logic) will be ball grid arrays and almost impossible to DIY without xray inspection equipment and a reflow oven. You can get what you need for a few hundred $ on eBay if you're patient and lucky but even then, getting to the point where you can solder the chips reliably will take time.

If you have the budget for professional assembly, then I would start with a Digilent product that has an available reference design you can copy later. First get used to the FPGA and how it works (they are largely incomparable to a CPU or GPU except for the fact that they both have transistors). Then, design a simpler board with a smaller FPGA and work your way up to the big 500-1k pin chips.

Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#66

Post by s3krit »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #51

I don't quite get the open source angle in the comments here. If I managed to get my grubby hands on a moderately modern computer, I can use all manner of open source software and I can create wonderful new software. The barrier of entry is fairly low in rich countries. If AMD open sourced all the design aspects of their chips, I would have to get a loan to build 100 million fab to have any practical manner to enjoy…

The argument to share your source code extends beyond the argument that the average end-user can take that code, alter it and redistribute it. The bar for entry for contributing to hardware is not 'has their own multi-billion dollar fab center'.

Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#67

Post by riku_iki »

GW150914 wrote: post #54
riku_iki wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> , (I think we're around 5th). Soft power remains our major advantage. Not that bad when you consider our outsize role in world military affairs. > https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/06/25/the-bi... . Your link says US is 4th in list of selected countries, not in the world. On this page US not in the top: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_...

That’s as a % of GDP, and says more about the GDP than the military spending. The US is number 1 in total military spending many times over any other country in absolute terms.

Sure, as number 1 in nominal GDP.

Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#68

Post by ur-whale »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #51

I don't quite get the open source angle in the comments here. If I managed to get my grubby hands on a moderately modern computer, I can use all manner of open source software and I can create wonderful new software. The barrier of entry is fairly low in rich countries. If AMD open sourced all the design aspects of their chips, I would have to get a loan to build 100 million fab to have any practical manner to enjoy…

I believe you have it backwards: this is exactly why there is actually very little risk for the big guys to actually share their knowledge.

The financial entry barrier for building a fab is so huge that what in heaven's name would intel lose if they published the RTL for - say - their integer division hardware to show and teach the whole world how it's done when real professionals take a stab at it?

And if they're scared AMD might copy their integer division, why not publish the Verilog code from 2 or 3 generation old h/w? (and this is probably a bad example, I believe AMD and Intel are essentially done competing on stuff like that).

But what I am talking about here is basically unthinkable given the current culture in the EDA world: a person suggesting this inside one of the big shops would be committing career suicice.

Conversely, if you navigate EDA discussion boards a little bit, there is no end to the snarky or sometimes downright insulting comments made by big shop insiders about how lame and terribly inefficient the open source hardware designs published on the net actually are.

In other words: mocking outsiders are their ignorance instead of teaching them how to do cool stuff. That's the culture of the EDA world. Time for a change.

Re: Darpa invests $100M in a silicon compiler

#70

Post by typon »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #5

Side note: when people complain about the military budget, projects like these should be noted. Political reality in America, today, is military R&D and jobs programs are easier to fund than civilian ones; so that’s where projects go to live.

So instead of explicitly funding research we should implicitly fund it in a roundabout way and you're saying people shouldn't complain about this state of things?
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