Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve • Hacker News Board

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#441

Post by SilasX » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

Firadeoclus wrote: post #430

SilasX wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can still be the cheapest option even after pricing in the externality. A lot of people forget this, because they advocate such Pigovian taxes with the intent of stamping out the good, irrespective of the (edit: net) value it provides. I very rarely see anyone come in with the attitude of: "Hey, burn all the gas you want once we have the appropriate carbon taxes!"

One problem with environmental degradation is that effects are often non-linear whereas taxes are typically linear. So "do all the X you want" is not the appropriate response if the tax is simply used as a lever to move behaviour in one direction. On the other hand, if the government is selling emission rights then this can model non-linear effects. Then it makes sense to say, "go on, use your rights to the full exte…

If you won't quantify how bad the damage is and how much you'd need to erase it, and therefore what at what tax rate you'd be fine with someone consuming to their heart's content, then you think the cost is infinite and therefore have no business proposing policy to begin with.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#442

Post by astrodust » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

sirmarksalot wrote: post #255

astrodust wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire packaging industry is ridiculous. For example: Why do garbage bags come in boxes or bags when they could be stored inside a garbage bag that's folded up properly to contain them?

That seems like a very small efficiency gain. At one bag per week, a single, recyclable cardboard box of 45 garbage bags will last you just under a year. Each box folds down to about one legal-size manilla envelope. I'm personally okay with wasting one manilla envelope per year.

It's an example of how the product could be the packaging. You, personally, use one box per year. Cleaning companies go through a lot more.

Even if it's just one box per year, it's one box that doesn't need to exist, the bag itself is more than adequate. That and the bag company has to buy boxes for no reason other than a lack of awareness on their own part.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#443

Post by astrodust » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #321

astrodust wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be more expensive to pollute. The problem is that clean-up costs are not factored into production.

And who's the biggest lobby for keeping them factored out?

It rhymes with "choke".

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#444

Post by astrodust » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #359

astrodust wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire packaging industry is ridiculous. For example: Why do garbage bags come in boxes or bags when they could be stored inside a garbage bag that's folded up properly to contain them?

Whenever I by garbage bags, they come in a roll. The only packaging they have is a sticker for the barcode and sometimes a couple of rubber bands to keep them nicely rolled up.

I wish they sold them here like that. Instead they come in boxes for reasons I cannot explain.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#445

Post by darkerside » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #381

darkerside wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's orchestrated by people who wanted it to work that way This is exactly what I'm talking about. Capitalism is basically a force of nature, like evolution. Claiming anyone can orchestrate it is analogous to intelligent design. I do agree that we all, and leaders more than most, bear responsibility to improve the system. But don't overestimate the capacity of any one person. If it were that easy to control complex…

Was one prison really so important to TPTB? I think not really. If Obama had actually done what he had claimed to have wanted to do, they wouldn't have implemented their "JFK solution" for that infraction alone. After all he dutifully expanded the murderdeathterrordrone program, just like the presidents before and after him. He persecuted more whistleblowers than any president before him, just like his successor is d…

There is no "Powers That Be!". That's my whole point. Obama didn't do it because 1) he realized his entire presidency would be devoted on an uphill slog to better the lives of a couple hundred people, and 2) there was no simple answer as to where to put them. You can view the world through an us against them perspective, or you can actually try to understand how all the little bits of it interact with each other.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#446

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

cobbzilla wrote: post #431

jessaustin wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was one prison really so important to TPTB? I think not really. If Obama had actually done what he had claimed to have wanted to do, they wouldn't have implemented their "JFK solution" for that infraction alone. After all he dutifully expanded the murderdeathterrordrone program, just like the presidents before and after him. He persecuted more whistleblowers than any president before him, just like his successor is d…

It takes 3/4 of the states to pass an amendment to the constitution, that means 38 (yeah they round up from 37.5), not 34.

Haha of course you're right. I'm not sure what was going on in my brain when I typed that...

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#447

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #445

jessaustin wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was one prison really so important to TPTB? I think not really. If Obama had actually done what he had claimed to have wanted to do, they wouldn't have implemented their "JFK solution" for that infraction alone. After all he dutifully expanded the murderdeathterrordrone program, just like the presidents before and after him. He persecuted more whistleblowers than any president before him, just like his successor is d…

There is no "Powers That Be!". That's my whole point. Obama didn't do it because 1) he realized his entire presidency would be devoted on an uphill slog to better the lives of a couple hundred people, and 2) there was no simple answer as to where to put them. You can view the world through an us against them perspective, or you can actually try to understand how all the little bits of it interact with each other.

The simple answer is to let them go. You don't have to let them go in USA. If you can't bribe some Pacific island to take them along with all the Uyghurs, then release them in the benighted desert wasteland from where you kidnapped them. If the nominal government of said wasteland doesn't want them, use some of that good old CIA ingenuity to smuggle them in anyway. What better use of "Special Forces", than to fix previous screw-ups that used Special Forces?

The way to avoid "an uphill slog" is to just do it, via executive order. Obama knew about executive orders; he signed thousands of them while in office. That's a big reason why his successor has had such fun: while laws can only be changed by new laws, executive orders can be changed by new executive orders. Trump has staff whose only job is cataloging executive orders to overturn.

"National security experts" will tell us that the few hundred poor bastards we still have in the hole are some sort of existential threat to us a decade after we kidnapped them, but they are lying as usual. We are vulnerable to actual vulnerabilities, not random people with adverse sentiments. To lock up everyone who hates USA or the horrible things that USA does, we'd have to lock up about a billion people. To change the world, we must change ourselves.

Speaking more generally, this sclerotic way of thinking is why a cretin like Trump can get so deep inside the OODA loop of his political opponents. When they say "we just can't", it's because they can't find a lobbyist or think tank ghoul to tell them they can. When one considers all the truly awful things various politicians have decided they could do, it's a bit sickening.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#448

Post by xorduna » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 10:09 PM UTC

maccard wrote: post #413

nyxtom wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing how often humans continue to essentially create new problems that are easily solvable on their own. A culture of convenience and throw-away (not my problem) or "I don't have the time for x" is why we keep having mountains of waste. Anyone who is concerned with waste can make the conscious choices to eliminate or reduce that waste in a lot of areas of their life. 1. Buy real food and cook it 2. Grow food…

> Buy real food and cook it > Bring your own containers/bags I eat out once a fortnight for dinner and once a week for lunch, and cook the rest of the time. The vast majority of what I buy is fresh food (fruit, vegetables, some small amounts of dairy, meat and pulses). Everything I buy is packaged in single use plastics. My lunch today, the tomatoes came in a cardboard box that was wrapped in plastic, the cucumber wa…

I think this is something that depends on the country. As someone used to buy raw food (without any plastic) I get surprised every time I travel to some more "civilized" countries where plastic is every where!

Anwyay, even in the fruit & vegetable shop, most of people pick small plastic bags to put and weight the food. I am one of the few ones that puts everything on the same bag.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#449

Post by smolder » Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 1:13 AM UTC

jdpigeon wrote: post #382

schiffern wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing the term "blame laundering" btw. Seminal systems theorist Donella Meadows mentioned in an excellent talk[1] that she (and other "systems thinkers") tends to avoid blame entirely, due to understanding the constraints and incentives people operate under. [1] Timecode to her comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuIoego-xVc&t=12m55s Start of her talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMmChiLZZHg&t=7m03s

That's an amazing talk, thank you

agreed, I appreciate the link.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#450

Post by girvo » Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 5:31 AM UTC

nyxtom wrote: post #432

maccard wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Buy real food and cook it > Bring your own containers/bags I eat out once a fortnight for dinner and once a week for lunch, and cook the rest of the time. The vast majority of what I buy is fresh food (fruit, vegetables, some small amounts of dairy, meat and pulses). Everything I buy is packaged in single use plastics. My lunch today, the tomatoes came in a cardboard box that was wrapped in plastic, the cucumber wa…

* Toothpaste can be made and or bought from places like Lush where the alternatives can be zero waste. It's a bit out of the ordinary but there are options that even I'm surprised by it. * Just about all produce/fruit is available without plastic wrapping (except for berries I've found, which is quite annoying). I think the only non-plastic option here is to just try and grow the fruit yourself. Or otherwise take the…

Meat is easy for me, I just head to the butcher that’s next to the shops. Not only is it cheaper and higher quality, but the only plastic used is the extremely thin bag they wrap the meat in, and they’re happy to use paper instead if you bring it!