Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve • Hacker News Board

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#401

Post by aeternus » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 7:33 AM UTC

soVeryTired wrote: post #399

aeternus wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is careful sorting of trash/recycling really a good use of time? Seems better to put that effort towards development of techniques to sort en-masse. Likely controversial, but I think there is also an argument for simply throwing hard-to-recycle items in a landfill. If consumption continues to increase, it will likely become economically viable to eventually mine those landfills for raw materials.

Is mining something from a landfill really a good use of time?

Only if it can be automated in the future.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#402

Post by intended » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 7:42 AM UTC

My comment is late but it’s against the prevailing mood of the top comment -

People are ignoring a very critical factor - “disposable culture” is the brother of cheap and convenient goods.

This means that poor people can get cheap food in cheap packagaging with better safety levels than otherwise.

This means - packets of Singl use detergent - affordable to people in poverty.

It means less paper use - which means less pollution in the creation process.

Mumbai has asked people to not use plastic - meat vendors are asking people to bring tins to carry meat. Those need to be cleaned which means an increase in water use.

This is a much bigger problem than it seems.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#403

Post by aeternus » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 7:45 AM UTC

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #310

aeternus wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, many of the things that we've though would be huge problems in the future turned out to be non-issues or much less of an issue than we thought. A few examples: -Population crisis -Peak oil & oil crisis -Global cooling concern in the 1970s -Ozone crisis -Rainforest crisis -Worldwide food shortage

You mean to say that we have stopped cutting down entire rainforests??? Do tell me when this miracle happened? How about the fact that we are going to be 10 billion by the end of the century? And the only reason that we have managed to avoid a food shortage has been the increase in the use of fertilizers which in turn is depleting the soil at a faster rate than ever before turning arable land into dust bowls and rive…

I'd highly recommend checking out "Enlightenment Now". Lots of interesting points in there but one of the most eye-opening is that many environmental problems are best solved indirectly.

People generally don't want to live in smog/pollution if they have a choice but will do whatever it takes to survive even if that means harming the environment.

For example, no amount of lecturing or rainforest protests are going to stop people that depend on slash & burn for survival. Best option is to open up trade, provide GMOs & fertilizer, and provide economic opportunity so they have options other than slash & burn.

You also see this with China, they've made huge progress environmentally, mostly because they can now afford to.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#404

Post by 11235813213455 » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 7:47 AM UTC

> Curing the plastic problem is a lot like fighting cancer. Even if everyone stopped smoking, there would still be cancer.

That analogy is so terrible, smoking increases cancer risk at least 20 times

Reducing plastic pollution by even just 50% would already be fantastic

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#405

Post by thecrazyone » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 8:10 AM UTC

mikec3010 wrote: post #105

matthewmacleod wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trucks in my local area of London pickup both mixed recycleables and landfill waste in a single visit - waste is separated into two bins, and the truck has two separate receptacles for waste. No extra ongoing emissions, streams are kept separate, and the household overhead of sorting is negligible. There is an entirely separate, less frequent service that collects organic waste, so there’s probably some overhead ther…

Assigning me a chore that benefits a business that I pay a service fee for is unacceptable. I'm paying them to take away my waste. If they want to sort it or alphabetize it or apply the Dewey decimal system they're welcome to. But I won't do chores for someone else without an employment agreement and adequate compensation.

I feel the same way. There need to more options to waste management. I don't want to feel obligated to sort out trash. Take my trash, sort it out and bill me.

This is insanity on stilts.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#406

Post by thecrazyone » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 8:11 AM UTC

monort wrote: post #400

wutbrodo wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about putting your trash in bins (or even bags), as opposed to leaving individual items strewn about your lawn for them to pick up? Do you feel the same way about getting your car to the mechanic instead of having him pick it up from wherever you left it? The line you're drawing to define "labor done on behalf of a paid service provider" is laughably ridiculous. The service they provide is "p…

I can get the car picked-up for repair if I want to. Where can I subscribe for a service "picking up unsorted garbage"? The problem is that garbage collectors are granted monopoly and use it to extract free labor from customers.

This is govt monopoly btw, not some private monopoly like Google (which is earned and can go away).

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#407

Post by dayn_d » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 8:15 AM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

You're right. It's more about production than consumption. I think there should be more standardized way of producing waste, in terms of material, shape and size.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#408

Post by thecrazyone » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 8:20 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #193

gomox wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much this. The one at my previous office wanted "clean plastic". What's "clean plastic"? Is an empty soda bottle clean? Is an empty salad container clean? Is cling wrap from a sandwich clean? I'm an environmentally conscious nerd. If my demographic can't figure out how the system works, what do you expect from the general public? Of course only the trash bin was full at all times.

From what I was told, the food remains on salad or sandwitch container will be destroyed in the process of dealing with separated trash. Theoretically, you dont have to care about it much. However, it can smell pretty quickly and bugs like it, so if you plan to collect plastic for multiple days especially if it is hot, then you clean it up.

Wow, Clean up trash before we throw it?

We're throwing away our time is all we're doing. Looks like no one here values time. Sorting into 13 bins, etc. We need govt to get out of the way so someone can figure this out and make money (their incentive to figure it out).

Govt's not going to figure this out for us. It has no incentive to.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#409

Post by quanticle » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 8:56 AM UTC

greedo wrote: post #317

dougmwne wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch A life cycle analysis might hypothetically conclude that landfills are a perfectly sustainable solution to plastic. Unfortunately a lot of this stuff makes it into the ocean instead where it will not biodegrade and will interfere with fisheries and ecosystems. Properly structured economic incentives and laws could solve this problem, as they have…

How much waste is making it from a landfill to the GPGP? I'd bet about 0% in the West. Studies have shown that most of the waste in the GPGP is from rivers in Asia. In my town, it'd be cheaper/better for the environment to landfill all the waste instead of sending it overseas to be "recycled." Our city recently prohibited placing cardboard in the trash. Something I would have thought is easily broken down...

In the anaerobic environment of a landfill paper takes an extremely long time to break down. There have been excavations of landfills where they found 60 year old newspapers that were still readable. There was so little oxygen in the pile, the process of breaking down the starches, cellulose and ink was taking place with inefficient anaerobic processes rather than much more efficient aerobic processes.

Long story short, a landfill is not the same as a compost heap. Compost heaps are routinely turned over and disturbed to ensure that oxygen permeates through to the core of the heap. A landfill, on the other hand, is explicitly designed not to do that, in order to contain potentially hazardous materials that may leach out of the waste contained therein.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#410

Post by madaxe_again » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 9:20 AM UTC

oldcynic wrote: post #12

idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

Targets the wrong place. It may reduce contamination of recycling streams, but does nothing to encourage less production. Perhaps a combination approach: $5 for a pack of small bin liners, or return your waste to the shop for free. If Tesco were filled with piles of consumer waste given back to them I posit the problem would be on the way to being solved within weeks.

They do it really straightforwardly where I live in Wales. Garbage is collected every six weeks, from a 120L wheelie bin. Recycling (six streams) is collected weekly. Either you recycle, or you drown in trash.