Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve • Hacker News Board

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#381

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:08 AM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #322

smolder wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you can't easily put the blame on individuals doesn't mean they're not responsible. Our "system" is great at "blame laundering" or obfuscating ethical implications of decisions through diffusion of responsibility and removal of context at different boundaries. But the system itself is not a thing you can blame, as it's orchestrated by people who wanted it to work that way. Leaders who don't act to change…

> it's orchestrated by people who wanted it to work that way This is exactly what I'm talking about. Capitalism is basically a force of nature, like evolution. Claiming anyone can orchestrate it is analogous to intelligent design. I do agree that we all, and leaders more than most, bear responsibility to improve the system. But don't overestimate the capacity of any one person. If it were that easy to control complex…

Was one prison really so important to TPTB? I think not really. If Obama had actually done what he had claimed to have wanted to do, they wouldn't have implemented their "JFK solution" for that infraction alone. After all he dutifully expanded the murderdeathterrordrone program, just like the presidents before and after him. He persecuted more whistleblowers than any president before him, just like his successor is determined to do. If the spooks want to "get their torture on" near a beach, they can just fly to one of their "black sites" in Thailand or Indonesia. Insisting on a Caribbean beach is for jet-lag wimps.

It's instructive to compare Obama's Guantanamo promise to his successor's tariff and bigotry promises. There are far fewer intellectual objections to closing Guantanamo than there are e.g. to starting trade wars with allies or making racism the national immigration policy, and also it's unambiguously the ethical thing to do. Still, one leader is keeping his awful promises while the other couldn't keep his good ones.

And don't give me the "politics" crap. Democrats lost ground in every legislature in the nation, starting two years into Obama's administration and continuing into the present election cycle during which they will lose even more. [0] Whatever goal was supported by breaking his promise, it wasn't getting Democrats elected.

[0] Remember, once Republicans control 34 state houses (32 now) they can start passing whatever awful Constitutional amendments they want! Do you really want our Constitution to have something about who can use which public restroom? Because this total electoral ineptitude is how you make that happen... in 2020 we'll all have to vote Libertarian just to keep the Bill of Rights intact.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#382

Post by jdpigeon » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:13 AM UTC

schiffern wrote: post #286

smolder wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you can't easily put the blame on individuals doesn't mean they're not responsible. Our "system" is great at "blame laundering" or obfuscating ethical implications of decisions through diffusion of responsibility and removal of context at different boundaries. But the system itself is not a thing you can blame, as it's orchestrated by people who wanted it to work that way. Leaders who don't act to change…

Stealing the term "blame laundering" btw. Seminal systems theorist Donella Meadows mentioned in an excellent talk[1] that she (and other "systems thinkers") tends to avoid blame entirely, due to understanding the constraints and incentives people operate under. [1] Timecode to her comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuIoego-xVc&t=12m55s Start of her talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMmChiLZZHg&t=7m03s

That's an amazing talk, thank you

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#383

Post by olivermarks » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:26 AM UTC

I've often wondered about some kind of in home melting device for plastics, like a big pressure cooker. So much plastic recycling is actually empty containers. Heating and compressing would greatly reduce the footprint and might make reuse easier too? Would this be viable?

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#384

Post by lovetrump » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:27 AM UTC

dpkonofa wrote: post #211

freeone3000 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single-stream recycling is a good alternative to this, and has been implemented in Austin. They essentially take your idea to the limit - if someone has to go through it anyway, why not just put it all in one big bin and sort it out later? So they do. Mostly works?

According to the article, that doesn't work at all, though. Not only does the stuff not get sorted properly in the end but things that could have potentially been recycled are now unable to be recycled because they're contaminated. That doesn't sound like a "mostly works" scenario except in the most bare definition of the phrase.

Do you have an example of contaminated item that can't be easily cleaned automatically?

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#385

Post by fuck_google » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:37 AM UTC

joshe wrote: post #138

idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

Switzerland does this too, the bags have a little stamp or sticker that costs $5. There are also 10 different bins to presort waste. It works quite well. They put a lot of effort into the design and ease of use at the collection stations (which are free vs the for pay garbage). It's called "polluter pays". They also enforce like Taiwan, $10,000 find for illegal dumping. And they actually look through your trash for b…

Many people just take their trash from Switzerland to France because it's cheaper and easier for them.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#386

Post by inapis » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:45 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #251

dpkonofa wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a big part of it and it's amazing that they get away with it. Case in point: Blue Apron. Blue Apron positioned itself as one of the more "recycle-friendly" food delivery services to try and fight the stigma against every delivery having bags upon bags of individually wrapped goods by providing recycling services. As a former Blue Apron customer, I loved that I could separate stuff out (hard plastic, soft…

I quite liked the convenience and food and recipes, but my nagging guilt over the packaging waste and transportation waste of individually packaged and shipped food, even when recycling, is the reason I stopped taking Blue Apron. Shipping the recycling back to them didn't seem like a net positive either. But at least they tried! I feel bad picking on Blue Apron when single using plastic water bottles are everywhere .

Don't get trapped in the fallacy of what-about-ism. Just because plastic bottles are a nuisance already present everywhere doesn't give other entities a license to produce more trash.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#387

Post by mehrdadn » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 5:02 AM UTC

StephenConnell wrote: post #268

wiredfool wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of, but not really. The water on the input side of your tap is much more valuable than the sewer side. It's not usable for drinking water, it is usable for greywater purposes. If you've got a septic system, it'll go through that into the local ground water, if not, it'll go into the septic sewer and eventually to a treatment plant, and from there a river. If it was originally aquifer water, you've taken (likely)…

Northern California gray water and black water is treated and sent to Southern California as drinking water. So it depends on where you are.

Is this for real? I didn't know this. Any links?

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#388

Post by megy » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 5:13 AM UTC

jcoffland wrote: post #99

It's incredible that corporations are allowed to pump out massive quantities of single use plastic and then we blame the consumer for not recycling it. The idea that the solution is to change the habits of billions of people rather than enforce some rules on a few thousand companies is just crazy.

I think we blame the person who buys it, as we should.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#389

Post by dang » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 5:19 AM UTC

njarboe wrote: post #151

dang wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't recycle comments from previous threads. It's a fine comment, but HN threads are supposed to be conversations and we're trying to avoid repetition.

Ok. With China not taking in trash anymore, I imagine these kind of stories will continue to be on the front page for awhile. I think it is worth while for people to be exposed to this possible alternative to the current recycling system. I guess a custom response to someone else's comment is more what you are hoping for?

Yes, exactly.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#390

Post by lemonghost » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 5:28 AM UTC

quantum_magpie wrote: post #365

victorhooi wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm, surely you can see that's a little crazy? I'm all for environmental awareness - but it's a bit like the people saying, oh, why do you not use re-usable containers for everything, or do you really need to dishwash everything? Things like food safety, and not making your customers sick are enshrined in law - and that's a good thing. Even at my work, they aren't allowed to re-serve/re-heat things that have been ser…

>[...]do you really need to dishwash everything? You don't! Unless you have flies and cockroaches infested kitchen, some stray bacteria left after just water-washing will be much less harmful than eating the stuck-on-surface dishsoap (which does not rinse off completely, since it's hydrophobic). I have an even worse opinion of people constantly bleaching their countertops. shudder As an anecdote, I once had a misfort…

Soaps and detergents are not hydrophobic. They are part hydrophilic and part lipophilic which is how they pull lipids into the water when you wash something.