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Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

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Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#221

Post by SilasX »

corey_moncure wrote: post #139
stingraycharles wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The creators of all this garbage do so because it's profitable” Isn’t this rather something that market forces demand, i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option? Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree with the rest of what you’re saying, I just think that the businesses aren’t as evil as you portray them to be. In the end, the solution is probably government regulation by subsidizing alternatives and/or a compl…

>i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option This is what he means by "externality". The disposable plastic garbage isn't really the cheapest option. It's just that the real cost of all the garbage isn't priced in at market.

It can still be the cheapest option even after pricing in the externality. A lot of people forget this, because they advocate such Pigovian taxes with the intent of stamping out the good, irrespective of the (edit: net) value it provides.

I very rarely see anyone come in with the attitude of: "Hey, burn all the gas you want once we have the appropriate carbon taxes!"

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#222

Post by strainer »

vmarshall23 wrote: post #152

This has long driven me crazy. I have a version of this argument with my wife every few weeks. I live in a city that has three bins: compost, landfill, and recycling, and overall the city (SF) does a really good job apparently of sorting trash. But if you want a system that doesn't break down if someone throws a handful of batteries in the compost bin, then someone or something somewhere still has to sort the trash s…

I expect compostable waste is just so messy its less work overall to keep it separate. But if it is as economical to separate after mixing as you expect, then its a business opportunity.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#223

Post by TooBrokeToBeg »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #180
MBCook wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no city had ever passed laws that the President doesn’t like. And the President is also in charge of local waste disposal, as we all know.

-removed by author-

> the executive branch followed certain norms around this, until this administration

Which norms? Which administration didn't act differently than all others? Reagan firing the FAA unionizers was a new one.

Obama said he couldn't “waive away the law Congress put in place.” DHS went and legalized a few million anyway, years later. Sounds very familiar, but somehow different?

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but it sounds awfully revisionist.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#224

Post by wutbrodo »

mikec3010 wrote: post #105
matthewmacleod wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trucks in my local area of London pickup both mixed recycleables and landfill waste in a single visit - waste is separated into two bins, and the truck has two separate receptacles for waste. No extra ongoing emissions, streams are kept separate, and the household overhead of sorting is negligible. There is an entirely separate, less frequent service that collects organic waste, so there’s probably some overhead ther…

Assigning me a chore that benefits a business that I pay a service fee for is unacceptable. I'm paying them to take away my waste. If they want to sort it or alphabetize it or apply the Dewey decimal system they're welcome to. But I won't do chores for someone else without an employment agreement and adequate compensation.

Do you feel the same way about putting your trash in bins (or even bags), as opposed to leaving individual items strewn about your lawn for them to pick up? Do you feel the same way about getting your car to the mechanic instead of having him pick it up from wherever you left it?

The line you're drawing to define "labor done on behalf of a paid service provider" is laughably ridiculous. The service they provide is "picking up sorted bins of trash". You're not "doing their work for them" to meet the terms of the paid service agreement.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#225

Post by dougmwne »

roenxi wrote: post #198
corey_moncure wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option This is what he means by "externality". The disposable plastic garbage isn't really the cheapest option. It's just that the real cost of all the garbage isn't priced in at market.

Remind me again why the 'real cost' of plastic is higher than all the other garbage we put into landfill? I know there is something going on with microplastics or somesuch that I'm not up to date on, but I would have thought that sealing it in a big hole in the ground would be cheap, effective and safe.

One example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

A life cycle analysis might hypothetically conclude that landfills are a perfectly sustainable solution to plastic. Unfortunately a lot of this stuff makes it into the ocean instead where it will not biodegrade and will interfere with fisheries and ecosystems. Properly structured economic incentives and laws could solve this problem, as they have solved many problems in the past.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#227

Post by wutbrodo »

moltar wrote: post #87
mikec3010 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you doubled CO2 emissions of your fleet and incentivize people to litter or dump in public trash cans. A better solution would be human or robotic waste sorting at the dump, or clean incineration.

I’ve teavelled entire Taiwan by car and did not notice any excessive dumping.

Yes, and that's a dataset of n=1. Things like littering have a million different factors go into them, including culture. It's not unreasonable to think that in other cultures, increasing the incentive to litter would in fact increase litter.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#228

Post by oldcynic »

recursive wrote: post #196
donatj wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just stopped using straws a couple years ago when I got my tonsils out and couldn't use them – never went back. Just drink like you would from any other cup. You don't need a straw. And honest to god things taste better without a straw. You'll drink less sugary trash and appreciate it more.

It's slightly inconvenient with my super cool mustache.

A Kickstarter opportunity for some sort of fashionable IoT enabled moustache drinking shield.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#229

Post by sjg007 »

Reason077 wrote: post #107
slavik81 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty careful about following my city's recyling guidelines, but I don't think recycling is always the right way to handle a material. It doesn't neccessary solve the problems you mentioned. Improperly sorted plastics are burried in a landfill. They will not fill the ocean with plastic whether recycled or trashed. Global warming is mostly a matter of energy usage, so recycling only helps that when it's more ener…

The fact that beaches around the world are covered in huge quantities of washed up plastic suggests that someone, somewhere is dumping an awful lot of it into the ocean. (And not just in Asia)

It's mostly Asia dumping.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#230

Post by hn0 »

xapata wrote: post #142
stingraycharles wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The creators of all this garbage do so because it's profitable” Isn’t this rather something that market forces demand, i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option? Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree with the rest of what you’re saying, I just think that the businesses aren’t as evil as you portray them to be. In the end, the solution is probably government regulation by subsidizing alternatives and/or a compl…

Easiest solution would be a tax on petroleum as it comes out of the ground. That discourages both plastic and greenhouse gas.

It would certainly be good for the planet, but since petroleum is an input early in the production chain, that would cause price inflation, resulting in higher costs and lower demand, e.g. 70’s stagflation. Also black markets and resource contention.
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