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Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

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Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#171

Post by freeone3000 »

vmarshall23 wrote: post #152

This has long driven me crazy. I have a version of this argument with my wife every few weeks. I live in a city that has three bins: compost, landfill, and recycling, and overall the city (SF) does a really good job apparently of sorting trash. But if you want a system that doesn't break down if someone throws a handful of batteries in the compost bin, then someone or something somewhere still has to sort the trash s…

Single-stream recycling is a good alternative to this, and has been implemented in Austin. They essentially take your idea to the limit - if someone has to go through it anyway, why not just put it all in one big bin and sort it out later? So they do. Mostly works?

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#172

Post by emodendroket »

supertrope wrote: post #40
gaius wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which costs about $5 for a pack of 20 I’ve never understood why recycling wasn’t self-sustaining, isn’t there value in the raw material? When I was young reusing was the thing; a glass milk bottle went back to the dairy was sterilised and used again the next day. One bottle, with a recyclable aluminium foil lid, could be used again and again and again. Nowadays we make a glass bottle, use it once, then melt it down a…

Recycling is only economically viable if: cost of production from raw material > production from recycled material and value of recycle material > cost of recycling My guess on milk bottles is some kind of sanitation and product liability issue.

Yeah, except you can pull the policy levers to change the results.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#173

Post by quickthrower2 »

gascan wrote: post #47
gaius wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which costs about $5 for a pack of 20 I’ve never understood why recycling wasn’t self-sustaining, isn’t there value in the raw material? When I was young reusing was the thing; a glass milk bottle went back to the dairy was sterilised and used again the next day. One bottle, with a recyclable aluminium foil lid, could be used again and again and again. Nowadays we make a glass bottle, use it once, then melt it down a…

Some recyclables are really valuable (metal, quality cardboard), but others that we really want to recycle aren't particularly (plastics, glass). Also, morons throw shocking amounts of obvious trash into the recycling stream, which is a huge pain for recyclers, and thus can significantly devalue what should otherwise be a profitable stream of recycling.

There is non obvious trash, like "paper" coffee cups that are not actually recyclable.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#174

Post by emodendroket »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #66
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kinds of punitive policies have a very obvious side-effect. You dump the garbage in a ravine or stream, or somewhere easy to dump. And so what if you get caught. You get fined a few hundred dollars, where you saved 5x that by dumping. The problem with recycling is it's recycling... There's a reason why the phrase is "Reduce, Reuse, and finally Recycle". The upstream firms are Reducing their costs with little re…

This. Where I used to live the only scrap yard would only accept nonferrous metals and the towns would charge for scrap metal. Washing machines on the side of the road was a routine sight, or it was until a new scrap yard that would accept just about anything metal opened up. edit: I'm struggling to wrap my mind around why this is getting down-voted. I'm providing a real world example of the behavior the person I'm r…

I mean with scrap metal or whatever it's one thing, but your weekly trash? Unless the cost is exorbitant people are probably just going to pay to have the bags for their trash. Like I think in Japan they were about $5; I'm not going to start trucking my fish bones to the local stream to save five bucks.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#175

Post by hristov »

idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

This is a very bad idea, because people will just throw out trash in the environment. It is a thousand times better to have trash thrown in a proper dump rather than on the street, in a back alley or in the wilderness. Most of the plastic trash that is causing problems is improperly dumped trash.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#176

Post by darkerside »

jklinger410 wrote: post #156
dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

This also reminds me, in a way, of the argument I always make about water waste. Yes, it is great to keep your faucet off if you aren't using it. And yes, if enough people keep theirs off, it will make a big impact on water waste. But as an individual, or a neighborhood, you will never waste as much as factory farms, chemical processing, and many other industries. Add to it the fact that these companies produce these…

> so they can enrich themselves

That's the only thing I take issue with here. Characterizing this as intentional misconduct muddies the waters. The line between cutting costs and benefiting from an increased share price is long and winding. Don't blame people; examine systems.

Where most of the money goes is back to keeping costs low for consumers, the same ones that are conscientiously keeping the tap water off.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#177

Post by gomox »

jschwartzi wrote: post #59
gascan wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some recyclables are really valuable (metal, quality cardboard), but others that we really want to recycle aren't particularly (plastics, glass). Also, morons throw shocking amounts of obvious trash into the recycling stream, which is a huge pain for recyclers, and thus can significantly devalue what should otherwise be a profitable stream of recycling.

What's obvious trash? I look at the labeling on recycling and compost cans in my area and I honestly have no clue what I can recycle and what I can't. My choices are to throw away potential recyclables or recycle trash. People aren't morons, you've just built a bad system. And to clarify, I'm talking about recycling bins in fast food restaurants and grocery store delis. I've got a pile of used paper and plastic that…

So much this. The one at my previous office wanted "clean plastic". What's "clean plastic"? Is an empty soda bottle clean? Is an empty salad container clean? Is cling wrap from a sandwich clean?

I'm an environmentally conscious nerd. If my demographic can't figure out how the system works, what do you expect from the general public?

Of course only the trash bin was full at all times.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#178

Post by unit91 »

vmarshall23 wrote: post #152

This has long driven me crazy. I have a version of this argument with my wife every few weeks. I live in a city that has three bins: compost, landfill, and recycling, and overall the city (SF) does a really good job apparently of sorting trash. But if you want a system that doesn't break down if someone throws a handful of batteries in the compost bin, then someone or something somewhere still has to sort the trash s…

> I have a version of this argument with my wife every few weeks.

You make some good points here no doubt, but recycling is definitely not worth arguing with your wife over. Be loving and overlook her (perceived) faults.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#179

Post by emodendroket »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #42

I think the basic problem is that there is no feedback mechanism for recycling. For example, I could judge an eaten-but-not-entirely-washed-out plastic container of hummus to be clean enough for recycling, but I will never know if it is ultimately recycled or thrown away once it leaves the green bin. Machine learning could help consumers by leaps and bounds by being able to say with a picture or two whether a given i…

Well, in Japan the trash all has labels telling you what category it is and they're much more fine-grained (you might have to peel off one part and throw it away separately from the rest, for instance).

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#180

Post by throwaway5752 »

MBCook wrote: post #163
throwaway5752 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-removed by author-

Because no city had ever passed laws that the President doesn’t like. And the President is also in charge of local waste disposal, as we all know.

-removed by author-
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