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Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

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Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#151

Post by njarboe »

dang wrote: post #72
njarboe wrote: post #67

Comment from a similar recent thread ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17359807 ) Modern dumps are sealed very well and can hold huge amounts. At $50 a ton we will never run out of space. Put everything in the dump. Plastic, green waste, garbage, paper, electronics, etc. Sort out pure metals like steel and aluminum. Do methane recovery on the pile and burn it for power. This will sequester a lot of carbon and at…

Please don't recycle comments from previous threads. It's a fine comment, but HN threads are supposed to be conversations and we're trying to avoid repetition.

Ok. With China not taking in trash anymore, I imagine these kind of stories will continue to be on the front page for awhile. I think it is worth while for people to be exposed to this possible alternative to the current recycling system. I guess a custom response to someone else's comment is more what you are hoping for?

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#152

Post by vmarshall23 »

This has long driven me crazy. I have a version of this argument with my wife every few weeks. I live in a city that has three bins: compost, landfill, and recycling, and overall the city (SF) does a really good job apparently of sorting trash.

But if you want a system that doesn't break down if someone throws a handful of batteries in the compost bin, then someone or something somewhere still has to sort the trash stream.

So, at best, you've used all the labor of everyone in SF to reduce the number of people/things/processes downstream to sort the trash properly.

So, yes, the ball is ultimately in the manufacturer's court for a lot of this, but home recycling is at best a terrible use of labor/time/money. Raise taxes to hire more sorting capability, because if it requires 100 more trained humans sorting somewhere downstream that's surely less than all-the-people-in-SF-a-few-minutes-everyday to do a less-than-perfect job.

Also, I think a lot of these laws also do another disservice in that they make people feel like they're doing something to help the situation which keeps them from actually solving the problem.

Like the new plastic straws ban to keep plastic out of the ocean. If the problem is "keep plastic out of the ocean", then solve "why does plastic get in the ocean" problem. Banning plastic straws might be part of the solution, but what seems to happen so often is that we make one of these "feel-good" laws that keeps a negligible amount of plastic out of the ocean, and I have to drink out of a shitty straw, and people think that someone we've made substantive progress to a real solution.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#154

Post by ensignavenger »

gandreani wrote: post #16
idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

Holy moly! Thirteen bins!! Still not clear how people are prevented from throwing garbage into the recycle bins. Is the recyclable stuff not placed in bags and therefore easy to be vetted by the staff?

Japan (Sapporo) has a similar system- recycling was placed directly in bins (I don't think there were 13, but there were several).

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#155

Post by [deleted] »

dgacmu wrote: post #130
ryandrake wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. I’m reminded of a thread from yesterday: [1]. There are tons of places where nobody gives a single crap about waste disposal. The sides of the roads are literal trash heaps. “The West” is not going to solve this global problem by making everyone sort their trash into 10 different bins. It needs to stop at the source: the companies producing all this waste (mostly discarded packaging). 1: https:/…

small nit - the sorting of trash is not the exclusive domain of women. "by making people sort their trash". :-) (I say this as the household Ph.D. trash sorter...) Thanks for updating. --the sensitive.

[deleted]

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#156

Post by jklinger410 »

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

This also reminds me, in a way, of the argument I always make about water waste.

Yes, it is great to keep your faucet off if you aren't using it. And yes, if enough people keep theirs off, it will make a big impact on water waste.

But as an individual, or a neighborhood, you will never waste as much as factory farms, chemical processing, and many other industries.

Add to it the fact that these companies produce these products, with these wasteful systems, to maintain profit margins so that they can enrich themselves.

If they were making them and breaking even, not paying themselves much. Like if it was a government run industry, and the demand was just so high for this shitty wasteful thing, maybe then you could blame the consumer.

But those who take the most profit accept responsibility.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#157

Post by emodendroket »

stingraycharles wrote: post #133
dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

“The creators of all this garbage do so because it's profitable” Isn’t this rather something that market forces demand, i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option? Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree with the rest of what you’re saying, I just think that the businesses aren’t as evil as you portray them to be. In the end, the solution is probably government regulation by subsidizing alternatives and/or a compl…

I don't know what distinction you're really drawing. Polluting production reduces the costs for producers.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#158

Post by mijamo »

xapata wrote: post #142
stingraycharles wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The creators of all this garbage do so because it's profitable” Isn’t this rather something that market forces demand, i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option? Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree with the rest of what you’re saying, I just think that the businesses aren’t as evil as you portray them to be. In the end, the solution is probably government regulation by subsidizing alternatives and/or a compl…

Easiest solution would be a tax on petroleum as it comes out of the ground. That discourages both plastic and greenhouse gas.

Now how high would that tax need to be to so that everyday goods would dump plastic? And what would that mean for other uses of petroleum?

Let's say you want a plastic bottle to cost 0.1$ more, so that alternative options are considered, and you tax it on the original petroleum and gas processed, what does that represent for the fuel used in a plane?

The problem is that not every use is equal, some are more necessary than others and pricing things by a general tax is not a right solution.

Many countries are banning plastic plates and bags for instance, because their benefit is nearly 0 and their cost is super high because many people just throw them away randomly. On the other hand airplane fuel is not easily replacable right now, so it should probably be taxed less (but still taxed enough to encourage other alternatives to develop).

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#159

Post by MBCook »

oldcynic wrote: post #12
idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

Targets the wrong place. It may reduce contamination of recycling streams, but does nothing to encourage less production. Perhaps a combination approach: $5 for a pack of small bin liners, or return your waste to the shop for free. If Tesco were filled with piles of consumer waste given back to them I posit the problem would be on the way to being solved within weeks.

It’s not perfect but it tries to price an externality back in. Consumers may demand better packaging if this was a thing in the US, providing manufacturers to improve their waste level.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#160

Post by VWrapper »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #144
VWrapper wrote: post #54

-snip, self-censorship for safety-

So because no one recycles in your country, everyone else should adopt your standards and not recycle too?

Are you brain damaged or something? How is that relevant to what I posted like at all?
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