Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve • Hacker News Board

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#131

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

Some times you need pioneers to show that bringing a reusable cup or riding a bike isn't the same as going back to Dickensian times. You need people onboard to pressure politicians into changing laws.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#132

Post by magduf » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

>If we forced all producers of trash to account for its safe reuse, recycling or disposal as part of the cost of doing business, this problem would disappear quickly. Because here's the thing, the bill always comes due. If we let them skip out on it, then we will be the ones who pay.

There's no easy way to do that, as long as we don't have a single planetary government, and as long as we have trade. The producers are in one country, the consumers in other countries, and there's no easy way to implement policies like those you advocate. You'd have to implement insanely complex treaties, which the producer countries aren't going to sign on to.

Much easier is for consumer countries to figure out on their own how to deal with the waste effectively. That might require tariffs, but that's something a single county can easily implement.

In the end, I see this as a technical problem. It's entirely possible to create mostly-automated plants which can process waste and recycle it. We already have such plants: you can see them on YouTube. We just need to build a lot more of them.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#133

Post by stingraycharles » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

“The creators of all this garbage do so because it's profitable”

Isn’t this rather something that market forces demand, i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option? Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree with the rest of what you’re saying, I just think that the businesses aren’t as evil as you portray them to be.

In the end, the solution is probably government regulation by subsidizing alternatives and/or a complete ban on disposable plastics. But even then, when considering the planet as a whole, the Western countries are hardly the biggest pollutors, so we need some world-wide collaboration on this.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#134

Post by detaro » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #77

detaro wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany we had rules that shops have to take back packaging, but especially with online shops this just wasn't used enough, so now the shop or manufacturer has to pay a (weight-based) fee for all the packaging they give to consumers. Pretty small though from what I've heard.

I’d be in favor of requiring manufacturers to take back unneeded product packaging, paying for postage if necessary. EDIT: Reading more of this thread, it looks like everyone is suggesting this, so my comment does not add much. So why is this obvious solution not implemented?

At least here, experience showed that people do not bring stuff back, I don't think mailing it back would be any better: if they don't want to bring packaging to the store, will they carry it to the post office to mail back?

It also seems like a massive environmental waste to ship individual packages of garbage around, when you can handle it locally just as well, and have manufacturers pay for it.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#135

Post by magduf » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

oldcynic wrote: post #12

idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

Targets the wrong place. It may reduce contamination of recycling streams, but does nothing to encourage less production. Perhaps a combination approach: $5 for a pack of small bin liners, or return your waste to the shop for free. If Tesco were filled with piles of consumer waste given back to them I posit the problem would be on the way to being solved within weeks.

>It may reduce contamination of recycling streams, but does nothing to encourage less production.

Sure it does. If you're going to slapped with a $200 fine every time you screw up with your recycling, and you have to pay by the bag to throw stuff in the landfill, if you have half a brain, you're going to think twice about every purchase you make, and if you really need it. That $1 water bottle that costs you $200 because your kid threw it in the wrong bin is going to make you not want to give your kid another disposable water bottle.

Producers only produce as much product as consumers purchase. Less consumption will result in less production.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#136

Post by Debugreality » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

In one state in Australia they used to have a pay per container returned so for example 5c per bottle.

If this buyback was paid for by the manufacturer it could incentivize recycling, create jobs and help pay for recycling and sorting.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#137

Post by blang » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

stephengillie wrote: post #69

blang wrote: post #6

I used to live in central New Jersey, where the people of Waste Management would send out quarterly fliers telling people "When in doubt throw it out"[0] I now live in Seattle, and when I tell people this campaign, they get extremely preachy and judgmental. Then when I try to explain that no, it's actually better for the environment, things really go no where. I should probably just give up on that. [0] http://www.ha…

> I now live in Seattle, and when I tell people this campaign, they get extremely preachy and judgmental. Seattle and the region have been leading recyclers for decades. Waste Management sends a similar brochure to King County residents: http://wmnorthwest.com/kingcounty/calendars/guidelines.pdf

They do have the brochures, but they are missing one of the important ideas (maybe just my opinion) "When in doubt, throw it out", meaning that economically and environmentally it is better to err on the side of throwing away something recyclable rather than erring on the side of contaminating the stream with something that is not recyclable.

And while the pacific northwest is good at getting things into the recycling stream, it might not always be for the best, and end up in the landfill anyway: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfil...

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#138

Post by joshe » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

Switzerland does this too, the bags have a little stamp or sticker that costs $5. There are also 10 different bins to presort waste. It works quite well. They put a lot of effort into the design and ease of use at the collection stations (which are free vs the for pay garbage). It's called "polluter pays".

They also enforce like Taiwan, $10,000 find for illegal dumping. And they actually look through your trash for bills and letters with your address. The Swiss don't seem to love the system, more like tolerate it.

Cool pictures:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_management_in_Switzerlan...

There's a picture of the 10 bin recycling thing halfway down this page:

https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-make-Kathmandu-a-clean-city

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#139

Post by corey_moncure » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

stingraycharles wrote: post #133

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

“The creators of all this garbage do so because it's profitable” Isn’t this rather something that market forces demand, i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option? Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree with the rest of what you’re saying, I just think that the businesses aren’t as evil as you portray them to be. In the end, the solution is probably government regulation by subsidizing alternatives and/or a compl…

>i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option

This is what he means by "externality". The disposable plastic garbage isn't really the cheapest option. It's just that the real cost of all the garbage isn't priced in at market.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#140

Post by eropple » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

stingraycharles wrote: post #133

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

“The creators of all this garbage do so because it's profitable” Isn’t this rather something that market forces demand, i.e. the consumer choosing the cheapest option? Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree with the rest of what you’re saying, I just think that the businesses aren’t as evil as you portray them to be. In the end, the solution is probably government regulation by subsidizing alternatives and/or a compl…

Businesses also regularly campaign to not have to take into account their externalities, though.