Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#21

Post by stef25 » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:12 AM UTC

hadrien01 wrote: post #18

janlaureys wrote: post #14

Especially on mobile some of these cookie management screens I've seen lately are HORRIBLE. If you're gonna make me click on every single partner to opt out of their tracking, I'm just not gonna use your site.

I use EasyList Annoyances with my adblocker, it hides all cookies/GDPR popups. If the website respects GDPR and waits for my click on the "Accept" button, I'll never see it and tracking shouldn't be enabled (many websites still don't respect that basic concept nonetheless)

Are you referring to "Fanboy's Annoyance List" here: https://easylist.to/ ?

I really want to get rid of all the cookies/GDPR popups.

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#22

Post by hadrien01 » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:17 AM UTC

stef25 wrote: post #21

hadrien01 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use EasyList Annoyances with my adblocker, it hides all cookies/GDPR popups. If the website respects GDPR and waits for my click on the "Accept" button, I'll never see it and tracking shouldn't be enabled (many websites still don't respect that basic concept nonetheless)

Are you referring to "Fanboy's Annoyance List" here: https://easylist.to/ ? I really want to get rid of all the cookies/GDPR popups.

I just checked, and apparently on mobile I use 'AdGuard Annoyances filter' and not 'Fanboy's Annoyance List' like on desktop. The former is a fork of the latter by Adguard, so I think it's about the same thing. EasyList's one works perfectly on desktop.

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#23

Post by dsco » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:19 AM UTC

I was expecting "dark patterns" to be a hyperbole but these are clear violations of GDPR. This will probably catch public attention when the press gets hold of it and makes the screen shots more accessible (not hidden deep down in a PDF).

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#24

Post by EliRivers » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:21 AM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #4

tbassetto wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't invalidate what you said, but just in case: Norway is not in the EU.

May as well be, as via the EEA we seem to adopt more directives from Brussels than some full members...

Well, speaking as a Brit, allow us to demonstrate Norway++

We shall finish up subject to the full set of EU obligations and privileges, but everyone shall strongly agree that the UK is not part of the EU. No no no. Just in the various unions and so forth, matching all the rules and that sort of thing. Not part of the EU. Nu uh! :)

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#25

Post by kazen44 » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:30 AM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #4

tbassetto wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't invalidate what you said, but just in case: Norway is not in the EU.

May as well be, as via the EEA we seem to adopt more directives from Brussels than some full members...

The only thing holding norway back from full EU membership is fishing rights and a referendum on EU membership.

Norway seems to actually accept its current political position inside the EU's sphere of influence just fine.

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#26

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:33 AM UTC

tbassetto wrote: post #3

a_imho wrote: post #2

Great summary, hopefully the EU can deliver what these companies are asking for.

Doesn't invalidate what you said, but just in case: Norway is not in the EU.

[deleted]

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#27

Post by walterbell » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:34 AM UTC

Good summary of dark patterns and consent, on page 7:

> In digital services, design of user interfaces is in many ways even more important than the words used ... Dark patterns are considered ethically problematic, because they mislead users into making choices that are not in their interest, and deprive them of their agency.

> This is particularly problematic given the power imbalances and information asymmetries that already exist between many service providers and their users ... a suspicion that tampering with default settings might remove important functionality, may affect the tendency to leave default settings alone.

> ... information asymmetry in many digital services becomes particularly large because most users cannot accurately ascertain the risks of exposing their privacy. If a user is asked to trade their personal data for a short-term financial benefit, such as a discount, the actual cost of the trade-off is difficult to grasp. In this case, the short-term gain (discount) is tangible and immediate, while the potential loss (privacy) long term.

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#28

Post by tyfon » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:50 AM UTC

minpur wrote: post #10

What a surprise! Microsoft villianised over the decades seems to be better than Google and Facebook. This brings us to the question. Have you paid XX money for a service that doesn’t show ads. Are you happy with it?

Microsoft _still_ does not let me turn off "Basic usage data/telemetry" being sent to them.

I tried to call them about it a month ago and they hung up on me. The one computer in my house running windows is still blocked with this popup.

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#29

Post by tyfon » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:54 AM UTC

kazen44 wrote: post #25

digi_owl wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May as well be, as via the EEA we seem to adopt more directives from Brussels than some full members...

The only thing holding norway back from full EU membership is fishing rights and a referendum on EU membership. Norway seems to actually accept its current political position inside the EU's sphere of influence just fine.

Right now we are in the worst position.

We have to accept all EU rules but we don't have any influence over it. I'd take full membership over that any time but the politicians don't want to risk a 3rd referendum. So we're stuck between the "bark and the wood" as a Norwegian proverb goes.

Re: Norwegian Consumer Council report on how tech companies use dark patterns [pdf]

#30

Post by WorkLifeBalance » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 8:57 AM UTC

ckastner wrote: post #5

Page 14: [edit: number corrected, thanks] > As the screenshots below illustrate, the Facebook GDPR popup requires users to go into “Manage data settings” to turn off ads based on data from third parties. If the user simply clicks “Accept and continue”, the setting is automatically turned on. This is not privacy by default. Beautiful! A minimal demonstration of a clear violation of the principal of data protection by…

I noticed Twitch is doing the same thing, if you "manage your choices" you get the banner to "manage your choices" on every page load, the only way to get rid of the banner was to "accept" which accepts everything. (I hope it was just a 'bug' but it didn't feel like it.)

I don't get it though, if companies are so scared of being fined 4% of revenue that they put up these banners, aren't they inviting the worse end of the punishment scale by trying to weasel around the law rather than just ignoring it completely?